[25nl 6max] Three Hands ...

Had some bad spots hit me yesterday and since I'm new to 6max would enjoy some analysis ...

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HAND 1 - Villain here is 50/29/6

poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $19.90
CO: $18.60
Hero (BTN): $25.25
SB: $24
BB: $37.45

Pre-Flop: Q:diamond: Q:spade: dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG raises to $0.75, CO calls $0.75, Hero raises to $3.25, 2 folds, UTG raises to $5.75, CO folds, Hero ... ?

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HAND 2 - Villain (same one) here is 50/29/6

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $25
MP: $40.60
CO: $25
Hero (BTN): $32.70
SB: $24.15
BB: $36.75

Pre-Flop: K:spade: K:club: dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, MP calls $0.25, CO folds, Hero raises to $1.25, 2 folds, MP calls $1

Flop: ($2.85) 7:heart: J:club: 6:club: (2 Players)
MP bets $1, Hero raises to $3, MP calls $2

Turn: ($8.85) A:club: (2 Players)
MP checks, Hero bets $6.75, MP raises to $13.50, Hero ... ?

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Hand 3 - Villain is 22/12/6

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP: $25.90
CO: $33.25
BTN: $15
Hero (SB): $26.40
BB: $25
UTG: $7.10

Pre-Flop: J:diamond: J:spade: dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG calls $0.25, MP raises to $1.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, 2 folds, MP calls $2.25

Flop: ($7.50) 2:heart: Q:diamond: 4:diamond: (2 Players)
Hero bets $5.75, MP raises to $22.40 and is All-In, Hero ... ?

Hand 1: Easy shove vs this villain his range is way way way wider than KK-AA here

Hand 2: Why are you betting on the turn?? You are vs an aggressive villain and u picked up the nut flush draw on the turn. This is a wa/wb spot. Villain is probably not calling another bet now that the Ac fell unless he has an Ace or hit his club draw. Betting really accomplishes nothing on the turn. As played you have to fold the turn I think. And I raise way more on the flop vs this villain, ~$5.

Hand 3: Its a really marginal spot with the diamond draw out there. I see alot of people flat calling 3bets with AA lately. Since villains AF is 6, I could see stacking here, but folding is fine too. lol, tbh I have no idea what to do there.

Basically what bw said.

Second hand we want a little bit of pot control on the turn. Think about when you bet, what you expect to call/fold. That guy's bad, but not necessarily bad enough to call with a jack there knowing there's still a river to have to go through. Anyways ya, check for pot control, call a river bet, bet riv if checked to barring a jack or something.

Hand 3 is a fold, he won't show up with worse very often.

Also, post the hands in different threads please.

Agree with bw and chuck. Shove hand 1, never ever bet the turn in hand 2. Those are quite clear.

About hand 3, i think you have to fold here. I'm not sure it was such a good idea to 3bet preflop with JJ. If villain folds to your 3bet (or to a cbet), you could have achieved this result with any bluffing hand, so you kind of waste the value of a nice hand like JJ. If villain flat calls, you have to play a large pot OOP with a high likelihood to have overcards on the flop so you don't know where you stand. And if villain 4bets, you have to fold. So whatever villain does, it's a bummer. I think flat calling preflop is actually better here.

Thanks for the help guys ... my apologies I wasn't aware of the one hand per post rule, and I will abide in the future. I'll maybe wait a couple of more hours until I post the results of the hands.

bw nailed 1 and 2. 3 is an easy fold. I agree with simply flatting preflop, but 3-bet isn't terrible. My question is though why are we cbetting here against such an aggressive player? What does it accomplish?

It's all been covered already, but the 2nd when I first read it I thought you were betting to protect against a single club flush draw, but then saw that you had the the nut flush draw, so betting after he checks doesn't accomplish much unless you were sure that you had the best hand and are already committed to getting as much in as possible against this player.

Wtf, why are we flatting JJ OOP against a 12% raiser in hand #3 zach? I 3-bet to like $4.50 here almost every time. Ice's 3-bet was hella small too.

c9h13no3 said:

Wtf, why are we flatting JJ OOP against a 12% raiser in hand #3 zach? I 3-bet to like $4.50 here almost every time. Ice's 3-bet was hella small too.

Click to expand...

Our options:

1. fold
We're ahead of his range, not going to go into detail why this is horrible

2. Call
3. Raise

So we're down to call or raise (3-bet). The reason I don't raise is because it doesn't really accomplish anything. The one problem with flatting may be that we leave ourselves prone to a triple barrel with air because we turn our hand semi-face up (at least approximate value) to a competent opponent. But if we 3-bet we will be basically using it as a bluff. If called, we'll be playing a marginal hand (at least in a 3-bet pot) oop in a big pot. That's a bad result. If 4-bet, we're likely folding, meaning we lost value in the form of basically set mining against overpairs and AK pushes us off our hand easily. I simply don't see the advantage of raising, unless his range is super-wide in which case we'd be 3-betting here with ATC. I just don't see what raising accomplishes here aside from turning a very solid hand against his range into a bluff.

c9h13no3 said:

I 3-bet to like $4.50 here almost every time. Ice's 3-bet was hella small too.

Click to expand...

I do agree with this though. You should be 3-betting in general at least 3x the raise, unless there's some reason you're not. I pump this to $4.75-$5 if we're going to 3-bet.

zachvac said:

But if we 3-bet we will be basically using it as a bluff. If called, we'll be playing a marginal hand (at least in a 3-bet pot)

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Since when is JJ a marginal hand in a 3-bet pot? What is your value 3-betting range? Like QQ+ & AK?

P.S. - I understand why you want to flat, you don't have to explain stuff I already know. I just think that we're way ahead of villain's range, and still ahead of the range that villain would call a 3-bet with. If you're only 3-betting QQ+ & AK for value, that's just too narrow a range.

Doesnt it basically boil down to were not folding out anything better, and nothing worse is going to call, so at best were flipping? I dunno, i feel like this is an area i struggle in alot as well

c9h13no3 said:

Since when is JJ a marginal hand in a 3-bet pot? What is your value 3-betting range? Like QQ+ & AK?

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I think it's something that's really part of zach's style from the video i've seen, and that i actually quite like and tend to copy a little lately. His raising range is very polarized with monsters and bluffs and he's really passive with medium holdings.

BelgoSuisse said:

I think it's something that's really part of zach's style from the video i've seen, and that i actually quite like and tend to copy a little lately. His raising range is very polarized with monsters and bluffs and he's really passive with medium holdings.

Click to expand...

So I get to 4-bet shove against him all the time right? Not to mention play small pots against him when he's holding strong stuff like JJ, AQ.

Here are the results of those hands...

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HAND 1

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $19.90
CO: $18.60
Hero (BTN): $25.25
SB: $24
BB: $37.45

Pre-Flop: Q:diamond: Q:spade: dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG raises to $0.75, CO calls $0.75, Hero raises to $3.25, 2 folds, UTG raises to $5.75, CO folds, Hero raises to $25.25 and is All-In, UTG calls $14.15 and is All-In

Flop: ($40.90) 3:club: 7:heart: 4:spade: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($40.90) 8:heart: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($40.90) 6:spade: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $40.90 Pot ($2 Rake)
UTG showed K:spade: K:heart: (a pair of Kings) and WON $38.90 (+$19 NET)
Hero showed Q:diamond: Q:spade: (a pair of Queens) and LOST (-$19.90 NET)

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HAND 2

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $25
MP: $40.60
CO: $25
Hero (BTN): $32.70
SB: $24.15
BB: $36.75

Pre-Flop: K:spade: K:club: dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, MP calls $0.25, CO folds, Hero raises to $1.25, 2 folds, MP calls $1

Flop: ($2.85) 7:heart: J:club: 6:club: (2 Players)
MP bets $1, Hero raises to $3, MP calls $2

Turn: ($8.85) A:club: (2 Players)
MP checks, Hero bets $6.75, MP raises to $13.50, Hero calls $6.75

River: ($35.85) 2:spade: (2 Players)
MP bets $22.85 and is All-In, Hero folds

Results: $35.85 Pot ($1.75 Rake)
MP mucked and WON $34.10 (+$16.35 NET)

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HAND 3

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP: $25.90
CO: $33.25
BTN: $15
Hero (SB): $26.40
BB: $25
UTG: $7.10

Pre-Flop: J:diamond: J:spade: dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG calls $0.25, MP raises to $1.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, 2 folds, MP calls $2.25

Flop: ($7.50) 2:heart: Q:diamond: 4:diamond: (2 Players)
Hero bets $5.75, MP raises to $22.40 and is All-In, Hero folds

Results: $19 Pot ($0.90 Rake)
MP mucked and WON $18.10 (+$8.85 NET)

c9h13no3 said:

So I get to 4-bet shove against him all the time right? Not to mention play small pots against him when he's holding strong stuff like JJ, AQ.

Click to expand...

Obviously history plays a part, and I thought I had mentioned that, but if we are against a super-aggressive player and we're comfortable stacking JJ in this spot then of course we 3-bet and are happy about getting it in. But your post here further shows why flatting would be better. You cannot 4-bet shove if I simply flat a raise. The fact that I'd play most mid PPs, mid SCs, and other medium holdings that play well against your stealing range the exact same way helps as well. We should be betting the top of our range and the bottom of our range. Since we can get flatted I prefer not the complete bottom but the hands that have almost no value flatting preflop but have decent value against the 3-bet calling range. As we get history and into light 3 and 4-bets, the value 3-bet (and bluffing) range opens up. But it opens up with our stacking range. I don't know if the way I play is optimal, but it does help prevent being exploited with light 4-bets. Especially in position, I just think a 3-bet here accomplishes nothing.

on edit: And how does it help playing a small pot against me when I hold JJ? What kind of hand do you want to play a small pot against JJ with? And it's not like I'm going to be limping with it. Any hand that wants to play a big hand with me when I hold JJ usually means I'm in trouble or flipping with AK (or possibly AQ).

icemonkey9 said:

HAND 1

Pre-Flop: Q:diamond: Q:spade: dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG raises to $0.75, CO calls $0.75, Hero raises to $3.25, 2 folds, UTG raises to $5.75, CO folds, Hero raises to $25.25 and is All-In, UTG calls $14.15 and is All-In

UTG showed K:spade: K:heart: (a pair of Kings) and WON $38.90 (+$19 NET)

Click to expand...

That's a cooler and a note that villain likes to min-4bet with a monster preflop.

zachvac said:

The fact that I'd play most mid PPs, mid SCs, and other medium holdings that play well against your stealing range the exact same way helps as well.

Click to expand...

How does JT/9T/77 play well against my stealing range?

zachvac said:

We should be betting the top of our range and the bottom of our range.

Click to expand...

You don't consider JJ to be at the top of your range? I sure do.

And how does it help playing a small pot against me when I hold JJ?

Click to expand...

It hurts you when you play a small pot against me holding JJ because you don't get value from such a strong holding. You let me catch-up postflop/move you off your hand/outplay you from position/check behind with mediocre hands, ect.

I think you're assuming that most players aren't calling a 3-bet without JJ+ or AK, which I think is absolutely false. Player's 3-bet calling range is usually much wider.

If this were a button battle, I'd be 3-betting to get it in. Since its in middle position, I'm 3-betting because the hands he calls with JJ has an edge over postflop. Additionally, I'd prefer to 3-bet since we're out of position for the rest of the hand. I'm sure you know that as stacks become shallower, the less importance position plays.