$25 PLO 6-max: 8-Game: C9 puts his bluffin' shoes on.

PLO part of the 8 game rotation. My opponents are typical for this stake level (horrible). Yes my hand has a dangling 3, I am aware.

I'm mostly wondering about the flop call, and the turn bet. How good is my draw with the flush draw out there, and how often am I value-towning myself against a guy slowplaying or weak/passiving a flush. Think I can get the 40% or so folds I need to make this profitz?

And there's no merit to raising this donk-lead is there?

poker stars $0.10/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

UTG: $11.57
CO: $32.18
Hero (BTN): $31.12
SB: $10.26
BB: $42.69

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with 7♦ T♣ 3♥ 9♠
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.10, 1 fold, BB calls $0.85, UTG calls $0.85

Flop: ($3.40) J♠ 5♠ 8♦ (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50, BB calls $1.50

Turn: ($7.90) A♠ (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $6.75

Dude people bluff in PLO at these stakes? I thought all you were supposed to do was nut peddle.

I can't say I am super excited about your preflop raise here with a dubious hand at best, but I can see you're just making an iso/steal.

Moving to the Turn ... I mean it's a decent spot to bluff reppiong the KX of spades here and you'll probably get folds out of players that know where the fold button is even if they have T high flushes or worse. I don't hate the bluff, but I just am not really sure about the entire concept of bluffing at these stakes. IF it works, then ya, it's a good spot.

This hand is a train wreck. In general don't try to ISO limpers much in PLO and if you do, don't do it with pure garbage like this. If you are suited/double suited without a dangler it'd be fine because we can put people with big pairs in bad spots on a ton of flops, but this hand just doesn't play well against anyone. I wouldn't even limp this from the button and I'd limp a ton of garbage. We can ISO in HE because no one ever flops anything but in PLO everyone will flop something.

Limp-3-betting from UTG in PLO is great against people who think they're playing HE and like to pop the button.

I guess you can bluff the turn just in case but bet smaller. They're not going to have a flush very often here.

baudib1 said:

We can ISO in HE because no one ever flops anything but in PLO everyone will flop something.

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I find this to be the opposite of true, at least in these 8-game tables. Everyone's looking to flop a fit, and if they don't, they typically give up.

to a point but people will flop two pair+ or an 8-out draw so often that you won't win very much with air and a cbet. for proof, look at our own atrocious hand that never flops anything. your other problem is the blinds call WAY too much so you're going to end up multiway a lot.

until you have a read otherwise, assume UTG limpers have a strong range in PLO.

to make this hand really fun, tell me you got called and rivered a Q.

baudib1 said:

to a point but people will flop two pair+

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You know, you only have a 10% shot at flopping two pair with 4 unpaired hole cards. Its actually less likely than flopping a set.

Idk, asking about PLO hands here mostly just ends up with people nit-picking about preflop hand selection. Likely just because its easy to understand. But all the PLO regs pretty much say that anything between a 50% and 20% VPIP playing PLO can be correct. And playing against players like this who are very straightforward & easy to manipulate postflop, I'd think I'd want to be involved in pots with them (especially in position). Not to mention that you're acting like UTG limpers have a strong range, when I'm at a table full of fish who have near 100% VPIP's.

I just have yet to see a good argument for being nitty preflop yet other than the fact that you tend to flop stronger fits. However, my postflop edge here isn't based on out-fitting people & coolering them.

well you should include that in OP

baudib1 said:

until you have a read otherwise, assume UTG limpers have a strong range in PLO.

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c9h13no3 said:

My opponents are typical for this stake level (horrible)

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First paragraph?

Horrible is pretty vague, saying they play 100% and play fit-fold postflop is a lot different from many horrible PLO players.

K, fine. Then in post #4.

My point is this: You guys always harp on preflop hand selection a ton. Give me an argument, preferably with some sources or at least A+ logic, why this is a standard fold pre. To me this hand plays a lot like 22. It doesn't hit a ton of flops, but its good enough to isolate limpers with, and it hits a few flops (like this one) fairly well that we can continue with good equity.

It is not a standard fold and its really worth it for metagame purposes and it is certainly not a standard anything. Its not like it is a great hand but you can pretty much take it down on the flop/ turn against most persons and im inclined to believe that you can do it very easily at this level. The double barrel is the only thing to do because once you bet flop you can pretty much bet any turn and rep atleast something.

I do not mind it once we never triple barrel a brick river but yeah, Im cool with it but defintely dont expect anybody else to be but you can always justify the fold preflop hear because it is pretty close to break even type raise

c9h13no3 said:

K, fine. Then in post #4.

My point is this: You guys always harp on preflop hand selection a ton. Give me an argument, preferably with some sources or at least A+ logic, why this is a standard fold pre. To me this hand plays a lot like 22. It doesn't hit a ton of flops, but its good enough to isolate limpers with, and it hits a few flops (like this one) fairly well that we can continue with good equity.

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Here's why:
PLO is a game that is about making the nuts and freerolling people. you'll never be doing that with this hand, a ton of the time people with JT98 or something will be freerolling you. Even on rare good flops (like this one) you will be getting the worst of it the majority of the time in multiway pots. when you're doing this with trash at least have some double-suited trash where you can backdoor into something.

When you play at a higher level and run into people thinking about what you're representing, people who won't call from the blinds with AFC, then you can try abusing limpers and using position. Your money will be made at this level from people who overvalue 1-pair and continue too far with bad draws, not from people limp-calling and folding on the flop.

Baudib, we are not raising this preflop for value. We are raising this with the expectation that we can take the pot down on most flops being that we have position and can play perfectly against a utg limp.

baudib1 said:

When you play at a higher level and run into people thinking about what you're representing, people who won't call from the blinds with AFC, then you can try abusing limpers and using position.

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This makes absolutely no sense.

c9h13no3 said:

This makes absolutely no sense.

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Pretty much no sense.

Mr. Mayonnaise said:

Baudib, we are not raising this preflop for value. We are raising this with the expectation that we can take the pot down on most flops being that we have position and can play perfectly against a utg limp.

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This is nothing at all like a normal expectation for low-limit PLO games. You end up 3 ways to the flop most of the time and good luck getting 2 people to fold when you have air.

C9's description of the game is loose. When you have a game with 100% VPIPs, you aren't going to be able to isolate often.

Well it wont happen if you are not going to try and it will work out more often than you think

well wtf, we need a better read then. are these players loose passive or do they fold a lot?

c9h13no3 said:

This makes absolutely no sense.

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It does. It's the old "move up to where they respect my raises" thing.

/sarcasm