$25 PL O 6-max: wrap draw + weak fd against donking presumed fish

slycbnew · Jul 16, 2010

Villain is unknown (I'm new at the table), but he's only got 60bb's, so...

Simple spot/basic questions - should I be checking the turn behind here? I figured I was somewhere around 40% against two pair/sets/overpairs (checked in propokertools afterwards, I came up with around 42%), did I overestimate FE? I realize sets aren't folding, but am hoping to fold out the rest of his range (I'd think sets would get it in on the flop, so...) - unrealistic?

Since I'm trying to fold out alot of his range, I'd normally bet smaller in this spot, around $6.50-$7, but I bet bigger because I'm never folding to a shove for the stack size - ok reasoning?

Oh, and is raising the flop ok (incl. size - too small)?

poker stars $0.10/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players - View hand 805936
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

SB: $22.78
BB: $16.40
UTG: $59.70
Hero (MP): $27.28
CO: $21.61
BTN: $31.35

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is MP with 7 :heart: 5 :spade: 3 :spade: 6 :heart:
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.85, 3 folds, BB calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.80) 4 :diamond: 2 :club: T :spade: (2 players)
BB bets $1.71, Hero raises to $4.10, BB calls $2.39

Turn: ($10.00) J :spade: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $8, BB raises to $11.45 all in, Hero calls $3.45

WillySmackYoAss · Jul 17, 2010

Even in 6 max, you're raising out of position with a hand that is extremely vulnerable in PLO.

Flop - I don't mind the raise, you have 13 nut outs, pretty good flop for your hand.

Turn - Good bet, you picked up another 7 flush outs, for 20 total, 8 of them nut outs.

Since you decided to play this hand, you played it pretty well. However I wouldn't get in a habit of raising these hands out of position too often.

c9h13no3 · Jul 17, 2010

When your opponent calls a raise OOP, he's usually pretty strong (or at least isn't into giving up). I have no idea what people's ranges are like, and what your equity is like in this spot. But given the flop play, I don't think you're getting a lot of folds on this turn.

Skaplun · Jul 17, 2010

Fe? you want him to fold?
If you want him to fold this bet doesn't make sense, wouldn't you be better off betting on a turn card that reps a draw that made it? instead this turn lets you pick up some equity and your villain gives you a free card.
IF you think you're +Ev on this turn (no idea myself.) then obviously his TP,2P, sets wont fold and you should bet.

slycbnew · Jul 17, 2010

It's not a +Ev bet on its own, has to have FE to go with it. My logic was that sets don't make sense (should have got it in on the flop) so he's weighted towards 2 pr and overpair hands. My flop raise reps my actual hand of course (and I would've been delighted to get it in on the flop with 2 cards to come) but can be made hands as well (TT, AA) that improved with the Jh (fd's, broadway wraps).

Part of my problem was finding a 2 pair hand that makes sense (T42? seriously?) - I also put him on having pretty much my hand as part of his range to donk/call the flop, which should fold to that size of a bet.

I agree with c9, though, he's not going anywhere after calling the flop, especially if he has a T. If he's got 2 pair and AA is part of my range, he's not folding.

Tygran · Jul 17, 2010

On the turn you are going to be behind pretty much everything he should be doing this with... And you've built an SPR of ~1.1 or so.

You are more or less committing yourself after the flop raise. I don't hate the turn bet. Your equity at that point is at least low 40s... possibly higher if he's getting stupid with something like a bare flush draw. Your turn equity plus your fold equity in this spot on the whole should definitely be +EV. Yes I do think you'll get enough folds on that turn after he checks to you. If he has TTxx or JTxx or JJxx then nothing matters for this hand, but I'm talking about this spot on the whole against an unknown. You don't need *that* many folds to make the bet +EV.

Alternatively, I kind of like just flatting the flop donk.. that is a strange bet and often times when a villain comes out donking pot oop like that he has something he doesn't want to fold. Personally I think this looks like TJ**.
Flatting the flop does a few things... most notably it leaves you more ammo for a semibluff later if he checks to you indicating he may be willing to give up. (it may not have mattered for this hand though). If he calls or reraises you on the flop, you almost are never in good shape. Given his stack size... I really think flatting the flop is the better option here. I like raising a more if the opponent is deeper.

Also... I get myself in alot of trouble at these stakes when I say the words "WTF... nothing makes sense.". People just play those dumb hands enough. I do not assume someone won't think 22xx or T2xx is the nuts on this flop when they are an unknown... I only assume that against someone I've seen play some.

slycbnew · Jul 17, 2010

Tygran said:
On the turn you are going to be behind pretty much everything he should be doing this with... And you've built an SPR of ~1.1 or so.

You are more or less committing yourself after the flop raise. I don't hate the turn bet. Your equity at that point is at least low 40s... possibly higher if he's getting stupid with something like a bare flush draw. Your turn equity plus your fold equity in this spot on the whole should definitely be +EV. Yes I do think you'll get enough folds on that turn after he checks to you. If he has TTxx or JTxx or JJxx then nothing matters for this hand, but I'm talking about this spot on the whole against an unknown. You don't need *that* many folds to make the bet +EV.

Ya, makes sense

Alternatively, I kind of like just flatting the flop donk.. that is a strange bet and often times when a villain comes out donking pot oop like that he has something he doesn't want to fold. Personally I think this looks like TJ**.
Flatting the flop does a few things... most notably it leaves you more ammo for a semibluff later if he checks to you indicating he may be willing to give up. (it may not have mattered for this hand though). If he calls or reraises you on the flop, you almost are never in good shape. Given his stack size... I really think flatting the flop is the better option here. I like raising a more if the opponent is deeper.

+1

Also... I get myself in alot of trouble at these stakes when I say the words "WTF... nothing makes sense.". People just play those dumb hands enough. I do not assume someone won't think 22xx or T2xx is the nuts on this flop when they are an unknown... I only assume that against someone I've seen play some.

QFT

..

c9h13no3 · Jul 18, 2010

Of course its +EV to bet the turn, since we need like 15% folds or something silly low to make it profitable. However, its almost certainly +EV to check it back as well (because, we'll likely make something when our draw hits, unless his draw dominates ours). So the question isn't which one is +EV, its which one is *more* +EV.

Since our straight outs are kinda concealed, and our opponent is probably strong, I'd lean towards checking back.

Tygran · Jul 18, 2010

c9h13no3 said:
Of course its +EV to bet the turn, since we need like 15% folds or something silly low to make it profitable. However, its almost certainly +EV to check it back as well (because, we'll likely make something when our draw hits, unless his draw dominates ours). So the question isn't which one is +EV, its which one is *more* +EV.

Since our straight outs are kinda concealed, and our opponent is probably strong, I'd lean towards checking back.

Agreed and that's sort of a hard question to answer... it may well be more profitable to check the turn back. The follow up pot bet on the turn though shows continued strength after our flop raise... I think you can argue following through on the turn will probably maximize our FE, but it's debatable... and I could go either way on the turn play given a flop raise. I think in general I'd rather not raise the flop, but given we did what's the best turn play? I think you may well be right about checking the turn through, but I don't entirely hate the bet either and as stated..both plays should be +EV.

Hypothetical: Let's say we DO check the turn through and don't get there... are there any river cards you would fire a bluff on if you are checked too again? How much are you betting?

Skaplun · Jul 18, 2010

you'd probably bet all spades.
you'd also bet any 2, 4, Q, 9 probably.
but you firing those lil bullets is very dependant on villain tendencies no?
Would he call with 8,7 when he has an A blocker? (I suck at omaha, but I'm trying here

)

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$25 PL O 6-max: wrap draw + weak fd against donking presumed fish

slycbnew

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WillySmackYoAss

Rock Star

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

Skaplun

Rock Star

slycbnew

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Tygran

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slycbnew

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c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

Tygran

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Skaplun

Rock Star

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