$25 PL O 6-max: Value bet with baby flush?

My cash game sessions are always short. I don't really have a hit and run style, I just feel my cash game play is sub par to my tournament play.

Only been at table for about 30 hands. EasyElis is a real fish. He called pot size bets all the way down in a 3 way pot with an 8 high flush draw about 10 hands ago. He is your normal calling station.

My question is if we should fire a bet out on the river here or if we should be check/calling and if we are faced with a pot sized bet, are we folding here ever?!?!!?

pokerstars Game #33767271193: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.10/$0.25 USD) - 2009/10/07 21:48:33 ET
Table 'Sheratan III' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: EasyElis ($36.45 in chips)
Seat 2: Liberte23 ($32.25 in chips)
Seat 3: jordanbillie ($23.70 in chips)
Seat 4: fudu212 ($23.35 in chips)
Seat 6: Lou1111 ($12.65 in chips)
jordanbillie: posts small blind $0.10
fudu212: posts big blind $0.25
air denzil: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jordanbillie [Ks 6d 3s 7d]
Lou1111: calls $0.25
EasyElis: calls $0.25
Liberte23: folds
jordanbillie: calls $0.15
fudu212: checks
*** FLOP *** [5d 4d 3c]
jordanbillie: checks
fudu212: checks
Lou1111: bets $0.95
EasyElis: calls $0.95
jordanbillie: raises $2.05 to $3
fudu212: folds
Lou1111: calls $2.05
EasyElis: calls $2.05
*** TURN *** [5d 4d 3c] [8s]
jordanbillie: bets $6
Lou1111: calls $6
EasyElis: calls $6
*** RIVER *** [5d 4d 3c 8s] [Qd]
jordanbillie:????????

I hope somebody who's good at PLO (I'm not) responds to this, I'm very curious.

The only bet we can really make here is a shove I think, and I'm having a tough time imagining what worse hands will call a shove here (even if villain is a huge fish) other than the straight, which I would've thought would raise the turn (or re-raised flop)? I mean, the flush is obvious, right? And there's exactly one worse flush than the one we hold (3d2d)?

You've got $14.45 behind with a $28 pot. Seems like pretty poor pot size management to me.

I think a pot-sized raise on the flop is a little larger ($4.80ish?) and that would allow you to bet $15.4 on the turn (leaving you with $3.50 behind). You're free-rolling other straights, and I'd be pretty happy to get my money in here with the nuts & a redraw.

As played, this is just so vomit worthy. We have too little behind to check and fold, but a shove doesn't get called by much worse. I probably just shove, because there are still sets & other stuff that certainly won't value bet, but might call. But its not a great spot. As played on the flop, you should probably try to check/raise the turn so you can get the money in before the river.

I'm not a PLO player, but this isn't a PLO problem. This is a pot size management problem. And you managed the pot in this hand so poorly that your decision on the river is just so horrible. Anything you do is pretty much going to be wrong.

c9h13no3 said:

You've got $14.45 behind with a $28 pot. Seems like pretty poor pot size management to me.

I think a pot-sized raise on the flop is a little larger ($4.80ish?) and that would allow you to bet $15.4 on the turn (leaving you with $3.50 behind). You're free-rolling other straights, and I'd be pretty happy to get my money in here with the nuts & a redraw.

As played, this is just so vomit worthy. We have too little behind to check and fold, but a shove doesn't get called by much worse. I probably just shove, because there are still sets & other stuff that certainly won't value bet, but might call. But its not a great spot. As played on the flop, you should probably try to check/raise the turn so you can get the money in before the river.

I'm not a PLO player, but this isn't a PLO problem. This is a pot size management problem. And you managed the pot in this hand so poorly that your decision on the river is just so horrible. Anything you do is pretty much going to be wrong.

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I try to not be like every other PLO player and just pot it when I have the nuts, it is such an obvious play. I think planning a c/r on the turn is bad because you are going to get checked behind A LOT and end up giving a free card to beat you. I mean, a set or a flush draw will call $6 here, but most certainly will take the free card if offered, and then they wont pay you off when they miss river.

I think pot size management is more about keeping the pot size LOW and not making it so big that you are committed regardless of the river. So besides having that point backwards, thank you for your input.




Anyone else have any suggestions about a river play here? I am leaning towards shoving being the best play. Nut straight may still pay us off here thinking, "Wow, did he really hit that flush?!?!?" But then again, nut straight probably would have raised turn, right?

jordanbillie said:

I think pot size management is more about keeping the pot size LOW and not making it so big that you are committed regardless of the river. So besides having that point backwards, thank you for your input.

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So you don't want to get all in with the nuts & a redraw? Pardon me.

I'm not the greatest PLO player but I think that I would check and hope they both checked behind me. I hate small flushes on Omaha, they always f' me over. I think you played the hand great till then, hope you won the hand.

jordanbillie said:

Only been at table for about 30 hands. EasyElis is a real fish. He called pot size bets all the way down in a 3 way pot with an 8 high flush draw about 10 hands ago. He is your normal calling station.

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You don't want to bet pot on the flop and turn with the nuts and massive redraw into a "real fish, calling station"? Because you don't want to be like all the other PLO players???

The river decision isn't the issue you need to be concerned with here.

What C9 said in his first reply is spot on.

You flopped the str8 and had redraws to the str8 flush. The bet on the flop should be pot size. You get an 8 on the turn. Well that kills your str8 because it leaves a higher str8 beating you. You still have your str8 flush draw. I would discount the regular flush as any card over 7 has you beat. I would have checked the turn hoping for a free card to improve my hand. i would have folded if raised to me.

PLO is a game of made hands and redrawing to better hands. When that 8 came up that pretty much killed your hand. Keeping it cheap to the river and seeing if you filled your str8 flush should have been your play here.

bubbasbestbabe said:

You flopped the str8 and had redraws to the str8 flush. The bet on the flop should be pot size. You get an 8 on the turn. Well that kills your str8 because it leaves a higher str8 beating you. You still have your str8 flush draw. I would discount the regular flush as any card over 7 has you beat. I would have checked the turn hoping for a free card to improve my hand. i would have folded if raised to me.

PLO is a game of made hands and redrawing to better hands. When that 8 came up that pretty much killed your hand. Keeping it cheap to the river and seeing if you filled your str8 flush should have been your play here.

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We've still got the nut straight on the turn and there isn't a redraw to a higher straight, is there? Just a technicality, since your point about redraws/keeping the pot cheap makes perfect sense to me.

c9 and Effexor, our redraw sucks, doesn't it? I'm not averse to betting larger on the turn per se, but it's cuz of the nuts and not cuz of the redraw?

slycbnew said:

c9 and Effexor, our redraw sucks, doesn't it? I'm not averse to betting larger on the turn per se, but it's cuz of the nuts and not cuz of the redraw?

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Its easy to make the nuts in Omaha (especially nut straights), but its hard to make the nuts with a redraw. The times we trap a guy with the nuts and no/worse redraws will pay for the times when someone has our redraws dominated and then some. If we bet the turn, and someone shoves all the money in, we're going to be chopping with other nuts quite often. But the fact that we can draw back on them about 18% of the time turns it into a big winning play.

On the turn, there is a redraw to a higher straight. Anyone with 967 has 4 outs to a bigger straight, but some of those make us a flush at the same time. But yes, the 8 to 4 straight is still the nuts on the turn, and we should be cramming as much money in the pot as possible.

If we had more behind on the river, we could probably check and fold. Its doubtful that two people will call weakly along without having a flush draw, and no one at this limit is good enough to turn a set into a bluff. But since we're going to be getting like 4:1 on a shove, I think this turns the best river play (as played) into a shove, but I'm not sure I play enough Omaha Hi to make this decision. The real key like I said earlier is to just manage the pot in a non-shitty manner in the first place.

Pot limit games are so much more difficult to play than no limit games because your pot management skills have to be much better. You can't just over-bet shove a street when you don't want to play a scary river, and new players biggest leak is that they don't build pots correctly.

c9h13no3 said:

The times we trap a guy with the nuts and no/worse redraws will pay for the times when someone has our redraws dominated and then some. If we bet the turn, and someone shoves all the money in, we're going to be chopping with other nuts quite often. But the fact that we can draw back on them about 18% of the time turns it into a big winning play.

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Cool insight, I've skimmed Hwang, gotta get around to actually reading him...

Also cool insight on PL and pot management, I've wondered why I suck so badly at FR PLHE...