$25 PL O 6-max: Multiway, wrap straight draw on two tone flop

BTN is 73/27, CO is 27/5, both over very small samples.

If this were HU, I'm snap calling against either Villain, agreed? Or is the two tone board enough for me to have to think first?

Multiway - how do I think through equity here to determine whether to make this call?

poker stars $0.10/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players - http://www.thehandconverter.com/hands/467482
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

MP: $25.00
CO: $22.70
BTN: $28.25
Hero (SB): $28.50
BB: $12.00
UTG: $28.45

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with Js 9d 7h Td
2 folds, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, BB calls $0.75, CO calls $0.75

Flop: ($3.00) 5s 9h 8s (3 players)
Hero bets $2, BB raises to $8.85, CO raises to $21.70 all in, Hero ???

very easy fold as played.. you will be up against some combination of straight draws and/or flush draws and/or sets

being oop sucks in this game doesn't it?



You can make an attempt to take it down but yeah have to be very wary of the potential flush 3 ways and oop. Heads up you can be less wary but it's kinda a catch 22..if you bet and get significant action, you are likely up against a flush draw possibly with something else....

Or look at it this way... Let's say the maniac just has a bare flush draw or an OESD or two pair or something stupid... the CO absolutely has something here likely involving a draw or combodraw... between the two of them they are almost always going to be eating up several of your outs, the flush outs won't be clean, and some of your other outs will often be a chop instead of a win.

One thing that took me awhile to realize is that the nuts are often not good enough in PLO (seriously) with cards to come.

This isn't a good spot to get it in 3 ways.

Yeah, checked equity after the hand, and I was behind a pair + fd and the nut straight (no redraws), so quite a few of my outs were dirty. Being oop blows hard.

I would figure your wrap is getting freerolled by one of your opponents here. Tough spot to get away here but it's probably your best move. Not sure what you would do HU, though.

Don't think I'm getting freerolled, I only have the wrap draw - but my equity here is, I think, pretty terrible...

I'm not too good at Omaha, but I would have fallen in love with this hand. You've got 10 clean outs to make a straight, and two streets for them to come. And you know where three of the spades are - and probably can figure out where another of the four are (opponent's hands). You have 10 clean outs compared to your opponents - who if they're both drawing to a flush - only have 6 outs.

But of course, somebody could have flopped a set or a straight, which is exactly why this game looks super fun. I'd probably call, but I think I'm more a gambler than you - and less a winning player. =P

Weregoat said:

I'm not too good at Omaha, but I would have fallen in love with this hand. You've got 10 clean outs to make a straight, and two streets for them to come. And you know where three of the spades are - and probably can figure out where another of the four are (opponent's hands). You have 10 clean outs compared to your opponents - who if they're both drawing to a flush - only have 6 outs.

But of course, somebody could have flopped a set or a straight, which is exactly why this game looks super fun. I'd probably call, but I think I'm more a gambler than you - and less a winning player. =P

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No you don't have 10 clean outs..not multiway, not normally. If both villains get in what will they have? it's a short list... flush draws, made straights, good straight draws, sets and combinations of the above. We can talk about if they should or should not be getting it in with the above hands, but that's irrelevant when talking about a maniac who will every time.


Let's look at our outs for a straight:

4 sixes
3 sevens
3 tens
3 jacks
4 queens


So a 17 card straight wrap. I will pretty much guarantee you that one of the two villains has spades. So off the top we must take any spade outs away so that's 4 cards (we have the J of spades). That gives us 13 outs.

It should also be noted that a ten does not give us a nut straight, so those outs must be discounted.. so let's split the difference and take one away for that.

It's very very reasonable to assume that one or both villains will have a made straight or a straight draw or at least a couple of our needed outs in their hands. For example the maniac is stacking 67xx and quite possibly any OESD here. We have to assign an imperfect number so I'm going to call it 2 outs gone due to this and it well could be 3 or 4. Say the maniac has 67xx and the other guy has at least one random 6, 7, T, J, or Q...there's 3 of our outs gone.


Also...even if we MAKE our straight... we could still lose to a flush and we will fairly often chop with someone who just made the same straight. I can't stress this enough..the fairly high possibility of chopping even when we make our hand hugely hurts our equity.

Also...what if the board pairs? You can expect say 99xx or 88xx (especially from the maniac) to stack off here.


So... 10 is a very optimistic estimate of clean outs is. HOWEVER we have to dodge a whole lot of cards and some of those 10 outs often result in a chop instead of a win. This situation isn't near as good as it looks at first.

Meh, str8 draw vs flush draw on board with major action >instant fold.

Everyone else has already said it, and I agree that I'm folding here.

I also disagree with the raise from the SB with these players in the hand. Also are those stats the actual BTN's (who didn't play the hand?) - or did you mean BB?

Likminutz said:

Everyone else has already said it, and I agree that I'm folding here.

I also disagree with the raise from the SB with these players in the hand. Also are those stats the actual BTN's (who didn't play the hand?) - or did you mean BB?

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Oops, you're right, I meant BB.

The raise pf was to try to isolate CO, and this hand hits alot of flops, but may not be drawing to the nuts all the time so I was trying to get HU. Obv sucks oop as Tygran pointed out, but that was my thinking.

Is this raise pf, w BB's VPIP being so high, a bad idea?

Haha if the BB is 73 for real in Omaha, we are really never isolating him if he "already has invested the BB." Or that's at least how I would see it. I also think the CO is probably never folding with position and odds since the BB is almost always calling.

I just see this as a limp or fold being fine depending on how easily BB spews chips w/ weak hands.

Tygran said:

No you don't have 10 clean outs..not multiway, not normally. If both villains get in what will they have? it's a short list... flush draws, made straights, good straight draws, sets and combinations of the above. We can talk about if they should or should not be getting it in with the above hands, but that's irrelevant when talking about a maniac who will every time.


Let's look at our outs for a straight:

4 sixes
3 sevens
3 tens
3 jacks
4 queens


So a 17 card straight wrap. I will pretty much guarantee you that one of the two villains has spades. So off the top we must take any spade outs away so that's 4 cards (we have the J of spades). That gives us 13 outs.

It should also be noted that a ten does not give us a nut straight, so those outs must be discounted.. so let's split the difference and take one away for that.

It's very very reasonable to assume that one or both villains will have a made straight or a straight draw or at least a couple of our needed outs in their hands. For example the maniac is stacking 67xx and quite possibly any OESD here. We have to assign an imperfect number so I'm going to call it 2 outs gone due to this and it well could be 3 or 4. Say the maniac has 67xx and the other guy has at least one random 6, 7, T, J, or Q...there's 3 of our outs gone.


Also...even if we MAKE our straight... we could still lose to a flush and we will fairly often chop with someone who just made the same straight. I can't stress this enough..the fairly high possibility of chopping even when we make our hand hugely hurts our equity.

Also...what if the board pairs? You can expect say 99xx or 88xx (especially from the maniac) to stack off here.


So... 10 is a very optimistic estimate of clean outs is. HOWEVER we have to dodge a whole lot of cards and some of those 10 outs often result in a chop instead of a win. This situation isn't near as good as it looks at first.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the educating me on the situation. I would agree with the fold here - I thought about this yesterday and realized there was a possible made straight and your opponents were likely holding outs. And of course there's a FD's chance to get made . . .

Omaha is a tricky beast, indeed.