$25 NLHE6-max: Let's talk about checking AK on the turn in 3-bet pots.

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baudib1

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Super-standard spot, ranges extremely well defined. No reads but villain obviously has 77-JJ here. After he folded I felt my turn bet was just a disaster and I'm thinking I need to refine my value extraction with AK in these spots.

Unless we're playing against someone super spewy we're never getting stacks in, even though it's a 3-bet pot. So we're looking to get 2 streets of value.

Especially on this kind of flop, I am now thinking I should bet more on the flop because default villains will peel almost all of their range here as long as he interprets it as a standard cbet. Maybe $3.50-$4 will be better.

Then the turn...he is never calling this bet with TT. So checking is best? AK is essentially the immortal nuts on this board, so some slowplay might be in order. And since we're in position, we let him either stab at the river or V-bet it ourselves.

Or do we "gaybet" the turn and river?

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($26.54)
Hero (UTG+1) ($25)
CO ($52.89)
BTN ($25)
SB ($27.98)
BB ($25.50)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1 K:heart: A:diamond:
UTG raises to $1, Hero raises to $2.75, 4 folds, UTG calls $1.75

Flop: K:diamond: 3:spade: 3:club: ($5.85, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $2.75, UTG calls $2.75

Turn: 2:heart: ($11.35, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $6.75, UTG folds

Final Pot: $18.10

Hero wins $17.54 (net +$5.29)

UTG lost $5.50
 
Dwilius

Dwilius

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Think you answered it yourself.
 
LuckyChippy

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I like the idea of looking at standard spots and seeing if how we are playing can be improved.

His range is almost always 77-JJ here as you say with the occasional KQ. I have in the past I'm sure checked back in these spots, more subconsciously thinking that he wont call another bet but will on the river.

I think a check turn 1-2/3-4 on river is much better than a tiny bet on the turn and a bet on the river. I think the first produces a lot of calls and some river bluffs which we can snap. The latter produces lots and lots of calls on the turn but I think lots of river folds.

I think though that people will play JJ/QQ bad quite a lot of the time in 3-bet pots at the ultimate micros and for some reason get it in on these boards. I suppose you just have to identify them.
 
ChuckTs

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You're playing against someone who is easily exploited, assuming your reads are right. (While I don't completely agree with your turn reasoning, I don't think it's way off.) If that's the case, which it often will be at small stakes, you can play an exploitable strategy right back, and he won't do anything about it.

With regards to the flop, just bet for value, ie bigger. He can have KJs, KQs, maybe worse, all the pocket pairs (many of which definitely peel at least once).

On the turn, this is where I'm not completely in agreement with you. It's a typical bad spot for barreling as a bluff, so I don't see how it can fold out lots of pairs. It's not a scare card at all. I don't even see 200nl regs fold 99 here more often than not, and as such I just keep betting for value. I might make it smaller, and more callable, than normal, but I definitely keep betting. He might fold 44-66 or whatever, but do they normally call a river bet when you check back the turn?

There's too much to kill your action or even kill your hand to stop betting. You don't want him sitting there with 99 and see any T+ hit the river and have you bet. And if your argument is that he looks you up on any of those cards, that just doesn't make sense if you think he's folding on that turn.

Maybe the bet-check-bet line looks fishy, but again I really doubt it's higher EV than just betting again.

And that's not to say you make it huge on the flop/turn, just bet whatever you think he can call.
 
WVHillbilly

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I like betting bigger on the flop in the hand posted and betting again on the turn against most villains. People aren't folding smaller pairs there nearly as often as you might think. I mean 55 folds but TT+ never does because the board is so dry and unless we only 3bet KK+/AK doesn't exactly hit out range hard the way an Ace high flop does.
 
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baudib1

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With regards to the flop, just bet for value, ie bigger. He can have KJs, KQs, maybe worse, all the pocket pairs (many of which definitely peel at least once).

On the turn, this is where I'm not completely in agreement with you. It's a typical bad spot for barreling as a bluff, so I don't see how it can fold out lots of pairs. It's not a scare card at all. I don't even see 200nl regs fold 99 here more often than not, and as such I just keep betting for value. I might make it smaller, and more callable, than normal, but I definitely keep betting. He might fold 44-66 or whatever, but do they normally call a river bet when you check back the turn?

There's too much to kill your action or even kill your hand to stop betting. You don't want him sitting there with 99 and see any T+ hit the river and have you bet. And if your argument is that he looks you up on any of those cards, that just doesn't make sense if you think he's folding on that turn.

Maybe the bet-check-bet line looks fishy, but again I really doubt it's higher EV than just betting again.

And that's not to say you make it huge on the flop/turn, just bet whatever you think he can call.

I agree that the flop bet should be bigger, I default betting half-pot in 3-bet pots but I think that's a better strategy with overpairs on raggy boards.

Most people with pairs aren't folding on this type of flop, they say, "I'm not folding TT to some c-bet."

I'm not sure I understand you're reasoning on the turn but I'm always happy to hear better players disagree with me. For one, I'm not sure what can kill our hand. If he has Kx he has 3 outs and if he has the range he obviously does (pps under QQ) he has 2 outs. If this were a situation where his range were more fluid and he could have more Kx (let's say, BTN vs. BB where villain calls too many 3-bets and continues with a lot of KQ/KJ stuff) in his range than I agree with you.

I don't understand your point about double-barreling. Keep in mind this isn't a NL 200 reg. I thought we double-barrel our bluffs against this level of opponent because they call flop/fold turn so often.

I suspect the same level of opponents will likely give 2 streets on a bet-check-bet line rather than bet-bet simply because it's the river and they are showdown-driven.

I'll try betting more on the flop and betting maybe $4 on the turn in these spots.
 
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baudib1

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I like betting bigger on the flop in the hand posted and betting again on the turn against most villains. People aren't folding smaller pairs there nearly as often as you might think. I mean 55 folds but TT+ never does because the board is so dry and unless we only 3bet KK+/AK doesn't exactly hit out range hard the way an Ace high flop does.

I'm not sure Nl25 villains are thinking about my range but rather "OMG OK I believes u haz da AK now"
 
WVHillbilly

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I'm not sure Nl25 villains are thinking about my range but rather "OMG OK I believes u haz da AK now"
Maybe, but remember, you're a 25nl villain to someone else, are you thinking about ranges?

People are generally very hesitant to fold anything with SD value in 3bet pots on such a dry board. With the turn being a 2 here he's still calling with a lot of his underpairs which he might not do if we check the turn and the river is another over.
 
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baudib1

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Here's another question...

Since I believe villain's range is so blindingly obvious here could we play QQ the same way...?

Obviously the K is then a scare card for us but as he can almost never have one should we play it the same?

(I realize however, when we hold QQ rather than AK on this board, there are many more combos of slowplayed AA/KK and the occasional weirdo who is flatting 3-bets OOP with AK.)

I was thinking if we have QQ we have almost the same relative hand strength, checking back the turn keeps the pot smaller cuz we're beat occasionally but we can probably extract thin value on the river more often with the B-C-B line.
 
WVHillbilly

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In position we should play QQ as WA/WB and check back the flop most of the time.
 
ChuckTs

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I agree that the flop bet should be bigger, I default betting half-pot in 3-bet pots but I think that's a better strategy with overpairs on raggy boards.

Most people with pairs aren't folding on this type of flop, they say, "I'm not folding TT to some c-bet."

Exactly. Think about relative hand ranges rather than the 'misnomer' stuff like "1/2 pot all dry boards in 3bet pots". When you start applying general rules too heavily you start to lose track of exactly what you're trying to do.

I'm not sure I understand you're reasoning on the turn but I'm always happy to hear better players disagree with me. For one, I'm not sure what can kill our hand. If he has Kx he has 3 outs and if he has the range he obviously does (pps under QQ) he has 2 outs. If this were a situation where his range were more fluid and he could have more Kx (let's say, BTN vs. BB where villain calls too many 3-bets and continues with a lot of KQ/KJ stuff) in his range than I agree with you.

I didn't notice the positions which obv makes his range a lot stronger in general. Even so, it gives more reason for us to double barrel for value. You're right in that it's essentially a WA/WB spot, but there are still too many hands that will call us not to keep betting. And that's not to say we have to bet 2/3-3/4 pot or whatever's standard, you can bet like 1/4 pot or 1/2 pot...

I don't understand your point about double-barreling. Keep in mind this isn't a NL 200 reg. I thought we double-barrel our bluffs against this level of opponent because they call flop/fold turn so often.

I understand that. I'd think smaller stakes players are less likely to fold marginal made hands. I guess I could be wrong; your average 25nl reg could be on the "I know he knows it's a bad card to barrel, therefore he's almost always betting for value" level of thinking, but I'd be surprised. It certainly wasn't that way even at 50nl or 100nl when I was playing those stakes.

To put it simply, I'm assuming your average 25nl'er is thinking "Flop: I have a decent pair. I call. Turn: I still have a decent pair, I still call", or something along those lines.

Here's another question...

Since I believe villain's range is so blindingly obvious here could we play QQ the same way...?

Obviously the K is then a scare card for us but as he can almost never have one should we play it the same?

(I realize however, when we hold QQ rather than AK on this board, there are many more combos of slowplayed AA/KK and the occasional weirdo who is flatting 3-bets OOP with AK.)

I was thinking if we have QQ we have almost the same relative hand strength, checking back the turn keeps the pot smaller cuz we're beat occasionally but we can probably extract thin value on the river more often with the B-C-B line.

It's not exactly the same hand strength.

For one, AK now beats us (it's discounted, but still in villain's range), AA is more likely (strictly speaking combinatorically), and if he called with any other Kx hands they obviously beat us. It also reduces the number of underpairs he can have. So basically, with QQ we have weaker relative hand strength even though it may seem similar to AK. It's a spot where in a single raised pot I'd be cbetting and often double barreling for value (assuming the turn was dry and non-scary for hands like 99), but in a 3bet pot we should probably maintain some pot control just to make sure he doesn't do something nutty like CRAI with AQs and have us fold (vs us checking back and him going bet/bet as a bluff for ex, which we can call).
 
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