$25 NLHE Full Ring: What does this mean?

Full Tilt - $0.25 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com
CO: $12.40
Hero (BTN): $25.64
SB: $25.10
BB: $19.67
UTG: $37.23
UTG+1: $23.11
MP: $25.23
MP+1: $21.62
SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has 3d Ad
fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.70, fold, BB raises to $1.80, Hero raises to $3.50, BB calls $1.70
Flop: ($7.10, 2 players) 5s 3h 7c
BB bets $4.00

Is calling a 3bt OOP pretty standard when you hold small to middle pair? I actually liked the preflop call, the flop looked good and I was looking forward to the cbet. Then villian lead out strong.

He just wanted to see the flop right? And no overs so go go go.

What do you guys think about an over the top shove by the hero? I'm set up to rep AA/KK.

Is this type of bluff good when you don't know much about your opponent?

Personally, I think it means villian has QQ or better.
I probably would have let this go preflop when you got 3-bet iso'ed. I would wager that villian snap-called your re-raise.

what's your goal in min 4 betting him?

Sorry, in the op i met calling a 4bt OOP.

@Jazz
Ok, I can see that. Ya it was a pretty quick call, he didn't have to think about it. Why slow down preflop w/ QQ+? To extract more chips later?

If that is the reason then why not check raise or ch/c? If you're going to flat the 4bet OOP with a monster wouldn't most then ch the flop to make sure to get the extra bet you're looking for?

you call with QQ there so you can see a flop and make sure there's no A or K. I would probably fold here but I don't think a shove here is horrible. Ok fold equity + some outs (3, A).

Tyler69 said:

what's your goal in min 4 betting him?

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I think a min 4bet would have been 2.90. Valid point though a more effective raise may be more to the 4.50-6ish range.

4 bet of 2x the 3bet is usually enough to get someone off a resteal though. At 25nl.

To answer the question...my goal was to get him to fold and win.

Tyler69 said:

what's your goal in min 4 betting him?

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I still got the info I needed/wanted.

cardriverx said:

you call with QQ there so you can see a flop and make sure there's no A or K. I would probably fold here but I don't think a shove here is horrible. Ok fold equity + some outs (3, A).

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I did what you probably would do. When I was reviewing the hand I thought he had an over pair but not KK/AA. QQ is making sense. The review got me thinking about what the shove may have done and if it was worth the $11 in the pot? The flop made it look ok. Could back door a wheel too.

Thanks for your answer.

tusabes said:

I still got the info I needed/wanted.

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Um, what?

Betting for information, not to mention 4-betting for information, is not a good reason to bet. We bet for value, as a bluff, or to collect dead money.

Our hand certainly has no value here - so are we trying to bluff or to collect dead money? Well, a min-4-bet is never going to get enough folds to make either of these work.

So just fold to his 3-bet pre-flop imo.

As played I don't see anything but a fold for us, what range does he call a 4-bet with then donk the flop? Certainly nothing A3 beats, and nothing that will fold to a shove.

i wasn't talking about bet sizing. 2.5x is standard for 4bet. What range do you think villain has after his 3bet? What range do you think you can get to fold?

I really don't think you ever get him to fold an over pair here which i think is what he has. The only the hand i think we are beating in his range is AK. I think shoving is just throwing money down the drain.

When I'm stealing I should give up everytime someone in the BB 3bets?
What's wrong with finding out if someone is restealing?

tusabes said:

When I'm stealing I should give up everytime someone in the BB 3bets?
What's wrong with finding out if someone is restealing?

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It's -EV when your hand has no equity?

tusabes said:

When I'm stealing I should give up everytime someone in the BB 3bets?

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Pretty much. Preflop is pretty horrible. Just fold to the 3bet.

I feel like folding to a possible re-steal discredits too many future steal attempts.

Once hero 4bet what was the opponent thinking?

tusabes said:

When I'm stealing I should give up everytime someone in the BB 3bets?
What's wrong with finding out if someone is restealing?

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WVHillbilly said:

Pretty much. Preflop is pretty horrible. Just fold to the 3bet.

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I think there was a fairly recent thread around here that discussed that leak in pretty good detail. (yes I'm too lazy to go look for it)

In a way i don't mind 4 betting with this hand but you really need a read that he has been 3 betting a lot

bgomez89 said:

In a way i don't mind 4 betting with this hand but you really need a read that he has been 3 betting a lot

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It's full ring. Unless you KNOW he's 3betting light, he's not 3betting light.

Was it incorrect for the opponent to call the 4bet? Should he have 5bet?

WVHillbilly said:

It's full ring. Unless you KNOW he's 3betting light, he's not 3betting light.

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Hence why I said we really need a good read that he's 3 betting light.

Oh and do not 5 bet shove

tusabes said:

Was it incorrect for the opponent to call the 4bet? Should he have 5bet?

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That depends on his range. If he thinks you're full of shit and that you'll spew to him post flop (which you were contemplating doing), then his flat is a good play. Obviously if he 5-bets you he expects you to drop all the hands aren't willing to stack off with. Just fold this pf though.

kleitches said:

That depends on his range. If he thinks you're full of shit and that you'll spew to him post flop (which you were contemplating doing), then his flat is a good play. Obviously if he 5-bets you he expects you to drop all the hands aren't willing to stack off with. Just fold this pf though.

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Exactly. If he thinks you fold to a shove why should he 5bet. He can call and let you spew postflop with things like bottom pair top kicker.

Of course it's much more likely that he is ****ing horrible and is waiting to see a "safe" flop with JJ/QQ.

kleitches said:

That depends on his range. If he thinks you're full of shit and that you'll spew to him post flop (which you were contemplating doing), then his flat is a good play. Obviously if he 5-bets you he expects you to drop all the hands aren't willing to stack off with. Just fold this pf though.

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During the actual game play I didn't contemplate shoving. The hand stuck with me during the remainder of my session though. Only after review of the hand did I think about shoving. For me that's what review is about...exploring different lines.

Shoving has nothing at all to do with my actual cards. It has everything to do with what cards I can rep based on the previous actions.

To me it looks that my 4bet created a sliver of doubt for my opponent and it also opened the door for me to get lucky. If he was wanting me to "spew" he would have checked the flop.

I was just curious as to how much doubt a shove would have created. Enough for him to wilt and fold JJ-QQ?

He's never folding JJ/QQ there if you shove. If he flatted with AK he folds but he calls with everything else.

This would be a cool play if you 4-bet to like $5.50 in an aggro 6-max game and then shove over the flop but pretty much suicidal in FR IMO. Unless BB is totally out of character for this game/stakes he has an overpair he's not folding.