$25 NLHE Full Ring: Two pairs on board with higher pocket pair

$25 NL HE Full Ring: Two pairs on board with higher pocket pair

Only had about 20 something hands on villain. I will walk through my thinking so please let me know if it was flawed or reasonable.

Stage #1545750441: Holdem No Limit $0.25 - 2009-07-21 21:39:00 (ET)
Table: CARIBOU AVE (real money) Seat #7 is the dealer
Seat 7 - AETPBS ($22.43 in chips)
Seat 1 - COTRPSHOOTER ($5.52 in chips)
Seat 2 - BLIEVE ($9.05 in chips)
Seat 3 - 0UT_0F_0RDER ($24.45 in chips)
Seat 4 - DR1ZZLE ($60.28 in chips)
Seat 5 - VIVIKOO ($36.09 in chips)
Seat 6 - TORIBIO70 ($24.12 in chips)
COTRPSHOOTER - Posts small blind $0.10
BLIEVE - Posts big blind $0.25
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to BLIEVE [9s 9h]
0UT_0F_0RDER - Folds
DR1ZZLE - Calls $0.25
VIVIKOO - Calls $0.25
TORIBIO70 - Folds
AETPBS - Calls $0.25
COTRPSHOOTER - Calls $0.15
BLIEVE - Checks
Ok 5 to the flop good odds let me hit a 9
*** FLOP *** [4s 8d 5c]
COTRPSHOOTER - Checks
Dry board. I want to bet but I am beat by pocket 44 88 55 TT+
BLIEVE - Checks
DR1ZZLE - Checks
VIVIKOO - Checks
AETPBS - Checks
No bets? Dry board maybe slowplay with trips but probably not with TT+
*** TURN *** [4s 8d 5c] [5h]
COTRPSHOOTER - Checks
Bet to see where I stand
BLIEVE - Bets $0.75
Expect a LP call how will I play on flop if face card appears? Probably check and fold on anything on the river.
DR1ZZLE - Calls $0.75
Dry board must have a hand to open call with 3 to act and no odds or simply a retard. Check stats 26/6 25 hands ehhh cant draw conclusions
VIVIKOO - Folds
AETPBS - Folds
COTRPSHOOTER - Folds
*** RIVER *** [4s 8d 5c 5h] [8s]
Ok A5 A8 55 88 is unlikely, 44 possible. TT JJ QQ unlikely open limp PF. Would he open limp KK AA PF to ensure players?
BLIEVE - ???

Couple of points.

1. Why are you playing with a 36bb stack? It is a very odd amount and isn't optimal. I would suggest buying in for full and a lower limit if that's what you have the money for. (Unless you just stacked up starting w/ 20)

3. bet flop bet flop bet flop. You HAVE to bet this flop with an overpair. I like raising 99 pre everytime when its limped to me, but with such an odd/small stack it makes it harder to do this b/c you are committed much easier.

4. I'm guessing draws are the biggest part of his range here, along with some low one pair hands. You need to continue betting the river b/c i don't believe anyone slowplayed and 8 that much. Overall I think you're playing much too passively, which could just be a result of it being too high of a limit? Hope that helps

Raise preflop to like $2. With a short stack, you don't mind getting committed with 2nd pair if you can get the SPR right.

as played, I would check all the way down to the river when 5 people saw the flop and turn. What happen if you got c/r on the turn? Your 99 is most likely never good at the point.

If it was me to play this hand, I would raise preflop to $1.75. Bet flop and bet turn.

Ok it seems like raising PF in the BB is the way to go. Now what if you have a mid position caller and a face card comes up on the flop? What do you do??

Well this was what happened with my thoughts highlighted
BLIEVE - Checks
DR1ZZLE - Bets $10
WTF kind of bet is that? The pot is about $2.50! Did he sense weakness with my turn and river check and is now trying bluff me off? He open called the turn bet so he must have a made hand or he is retarded. But what kind of bet is that??? 4 times pot size??? Jesus christ, this is my whole stack on pocket 99. He must have a higher pocket pair but he wouldn't have checked the flop...!$@*(%# Retardedly sized bet $*(@ it I call.
BLIEVE - All-In $8.05
DR1ZZLE - returned ($1.95) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DR1ZZLE - Shows [5d 5s] (Four of a kind, fives)
SON OF A !$&*% HE OPEN LIMPED WITH POCKET 5s!!!
BLIEVE - Mucks
DR1ZZLE Collects $17.92 from main pot

He made a good bet there, overbet the pot to look bluffy... you're also a ss, so you look like you're more committed to calling.

Also, (no offense intended) a ss of the size you played makes you look like a fish, a target to abuse (lemly also points out above that it's a difficult size stack to play). Image is important at the table, and the image you're projecting with a stack of that size is one of a novice. I go out of my way to pick on stacks of this size (between 25 and 50BB's), and pull that overbet move in a heartbeat against a player with that stack size.

P.S. I hate his pf limp and the fact he checked the flop...

gl!

i'd be more inclined to believe the river bet. You're not beating very much at that point

Ill tell you this hand made me want to quit online poker.

BLieve said:

Ill tell you this hand made me want to quit online poker.

Click to expand...

You shouldn't really feel that way - this is not meant as criticism - imo it's never a bad thing to make a mistake but it's really terrible to keep repeating it. So, you take your licks and come out again a wiser man.

2 pairs on the board with Villain overbetting, it's hard not to believe he has at least a small FH. Had you raise to $2 preflop, Villain would not had the implied odds to call with his pocket 5s.

btw, all of us here made some bad plays and calls in the past--probably we still make them from time to time. Stick with learning the game and you'll be fine. If you're going to quit after this hand--maybe poker really isn't for you--wait till you suffered some really nasty beats and oh... downswings and breakeven periods that make you doubt your ability as a competent poker player.

Call is yours.

i won't comment on the OP. The hand is such a disaster it's beyond relief. But i will comment on this:

Lemlywinks said:

3. bet flop bet flop bet flop. You HAVE to bet this flop with an overpair. I like raising 99 pre everytime when its limped to me, but with such an odd/small stack it makes it harder to do this b/c you are committed much easier.

Click to expand...

This is flawed thinking. Passing on +EV moves because it would commit us - i.e. make us make +EV moves later on based on stack and pot size - is just passing on good EV twice.

ItsMe said:

You shouldn't really feel that way - this is not meant as criticism - imo it's never a bad thing to make a mistake but it's really terrible to keep repeating it. So, you take your licks and come out again a wiser man.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the encouragement but can you point out what the mistakes in your opinion are? I outlined all my thinking so you can even analyze that. What was I missing in my analysis and what was flawed about it?

You know I might just be bullsquatting myself right now since this hand occured a few weeks ago. But why the fruck did I not bet that flop? Was I waiting to check raise? Since I didn't include it in my analysis at that time, maybe I was just so focused on thinking hit trips or fold that I became passive and checked from EP.

BLieve said:

Thanks for the encouragement but can you point out what the mistakes in your opinion are? I outlined all my thinking so you can even analyze that. What was I missing in my analysis and what was flawed about it?

Click to expand...

I think there's one element missing in the way you expressed your thinking in the hand. Why is your stack $9? What is your overall strategy playing 36bb deep?

As for the hand, i think there are two correct ways to play this 36bb deep. Either shove preflop or make a committing raise preflop and shove any flop.

BelgoSuisse said:

I think there's one element missing in the way you expressed your thinking in the hand. Why is your stack $9? What is your overall strategy playing 36bb deep?

As for the hand, i think there are two correct ways to play this 36bb deep. Either shove preflop or make a committing raise preflop and shove any flop.

Click to expand...

I see. I had quite some success executing drive by hit and runs with short stacks at 5NL and 10NL so I started off doing that here. I guess it is time to play real poker :smile:

BelgoSuisse said:

As for the hand, i think there are two correct ways to play this 36bb deep. Either shove preflop or make a committing raise preflop and shove any flop.

Click to expand...

As I was reading this I thought no one was going to make that point.

Even with a big stack, I'm raising with pocket nines in the big blind, but with a stack short it's an automatic shove so far as I'm concerned.

I think there are some serious issues that need to be addressed in your game before you even get to the river. Discussing the river here is pointless as you simply shouldn't be in this position.

First things first, your stack is way too low in this game. Now I recommend auto-rebuying to the max table limit (there's an option in all sites to do this) so you're constantly on a min of 100BB's. Secondly, if you can't afford that, you're playing the wrong limits. You should have optimally 20 to 30 buy in's at that limit so around about $750 for NL25 or half that for NL10.

Next, the pre flop play is horrible. Now whether you have $9 or $90 you need to be raising there. Value is only a good thing on paper as you want to build a pot and you don't want freaky hands hitting. The more players in the pot the more that you're going to be losing. By doing a raise up to a couple of bucks, you're left with a range of hands that will be above your nines, thus when that flop hits not only is there already $4+ in the pot, but you can be pretty sure you're ahead and stick in the rest of your stack on the flop....

The hand should never have made it past the flop. With your stack a PFR to $2+ and then an all in on that flop would have been the way to go really. By playing conservative you're going to see you're hand lose a lot against that many opponents, and when you do win it will be tiny pots...

Hope that helps.