$25 NLHE Full Ring: Two-pair facing aggressive action

$25 NL HE Full Ring: Two-pair facing aggressive action

Dipping my toe into cash games (normally a sit-n-goer). Finding this whole constant deep stack thing a bit unsettling. Raise the blinds goddamit - I wanna shove!!!

Ahem. Anyway, I'm fairly sure this is a correct fold at the river, yes? But what about the line? Should I have got away from this before the river? Should I jam the flop?

BB is massive fish (38/3) so wasn't too concerned with him. MP2 has stats of 17/11 and seemed a decent TAG. I couldn't decide whether he was on a flush draw or had hit a set with 88/JJ. Ace of spades on the flop made me think flush draw less likely.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($28.10)
Button ($25)
SB ($25)
BB ($7.47)
UTG ($40.17)
UTG+1 ($25.35)
Hero (MP1) ($35.18)
MP2 ($31.01)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A , J
2 folds, Hero bets $0.75, MP2 calls $0.75, 3 folds, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.35) 8 , J , A (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.25, MP2 raises to $3.25, BB calls $3.25, Hero calls $2

Turn: ($12.10) 7 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets $7.25, BB calls $3.47 (All-In), Hero calls $7.25

River: ($30.07) 4 (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $19.76 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $30.07

Raise and 2 more bullets with those stats and I'd have to peg him at 88. Usually a 17/11 will fold AJo to an open raise.

There's only 4 combo's that have you crushed on the flop. With top 2 pair I don't see myself getting away from this. I also think players are capable of taking this line against your cbet with quite a few hands that you are ahead of.

I vote for trying to get it in on the flop or raising w/ the intention of shoving turn.

88 is the only thing that makes sense for the TAG, unless he was making a move, maybe QJ spades? Anyways the BB was all in on the turn right? So you got to see the showdown? What did they hold?

I think you made a good fold. The betting pattern by the BB leads me to believe he hit a set on the flop, the other guy may have been drawing with a T9 and his overbet on the flop could have been a semibluff. Since BB was all in, what did the winner show?

Likminutz said:

There's only 4 combo's that have you crushed on the flop. With top 2 pair I don't see myself getting away from this. I also think players are capable of taking this line against your cbet with quite a few hands that you are ahead of.

I vote for trying to get it in on the flop or raising w/ the intention of shoving turn.

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+1. Thats what i thought too. If hes got the set, so be it. He's tight, but it also depends on his read of you (will he be able to bluff you a lot of the time?). Also, what about ak/q? You played pretty passive after your cbet, so he definitely could think he was ahead.

rssurfer54 said:

+1. Thats what i thought too. If hes got the set, so be it. He's tight, but it also depends on his read of you (will he be able to bluff you a lot of the time?). Also, what about ak/q? You played pretty passive after your cbet, so he definitely could think he was ahead.

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These guys are not this agressive with AQ.

If he thinks he is ahead why shove the river? What can you call with that AQ beats?

If he held AQ and thought he was ahead you would see a much smaller bet hoping to be called by AT.

This is almost always a set hoping you have a big ace.

So you're folding flop Stu?

As played, folding the river makes sense.

I agree with Likminutz though, we should be getting stacks in sooner. We've got any reasonable range crushed and they're showing a willingness to build a pot, get stacks in on the turn at the latest.

No I call the flop.

He could be bluffing / raising aomething like AQ to protect.


But after the flop, he is looking to put stacks in. These guys dont do that light. Its rarely ever a draw.

Thanks for the input guys. I'm happy with the fold at the river: the only hand that made sense was 88 or possibly (but unlikely) a busted flush draw, and yes, he turned over 88.

I'm trying to work out what the best line here is. I think probably folding the turn. Against many other types of players I'm happily shoving the flop raise but this guy had shown he was decent. The only hands I could see him raising that flop which I had beat were T9s or KQs. If I shove then he's folding these hands and only calling when I'm screwed (well...I suppose 4 outs to the boat).

Oh, and the BB had Q9 of diamonds.

It's not the easiest spot. When I'm spewing I call the river, when I'm tilting I check/shove the turn. In both cases I probably lose.

88 makes the most sense, with JJ/AJ not that statistically likely but possible too. AK/AQ possible as well until the river but I don't think he often shoves the river with these after we check/called the turn and checked the river.

NineLions said:

It's not the easiest spot. When I'm spewing I call the river, when I'm tilting I check/shove the turn. In both cases I probably lose.

88 makes the most sense, with JJ/AJ not that statistically likely but possible too. AK/AQ possible as well until the river but I don't think he often shoves the river with these after we check/called the turn and checked the river.

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Thats basically what I think.

One thing to note is that AK in particular should be discounted a little as it wasn't 3bet pre-flop.

That just means that you shouldn't count all of the possible AK and AQ combos as hands he could have as often if he has a hand like AK he 3bets.

So he could have AK but not all of the AK's

One thing to throw in just 'cause it's been annoying me lately; I hate these spots where I have a hand against a decent or potentially decent player, plus a fish who's short. The fish bloats the pot and I don't know if I'm good or not against the other player.

Stu_Ungar said:

Thats basically what I think.

One thing to note is that AK in particular should be discounted a little as it wasn't 3bet pre-flop.

That just means that you shouldn't count all of the possible AK and AQ combos as hands he could have as often if he has a hand like AK he 3bets.

So he could have AK but not all of the AK's

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At $25nl I don't eliminate AK as a flat call, but you're right, some of the time a $25nl player with 3 bet AK in his position which decreases the chances that this player has AK unless we know him really well.

Stu_Ungar said:

No I call the flop.

He could be bluffing / raising aomething like AQ to protect.


But after the flop, he is looking to put stacks in. These guys dont do that light. Its rarely ever a draw.

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For me the size of his turn bet is textbook perfect. It's a bit more than 1/2 the pot AND gives us better than 3-1 odds if the BB calls. This is a hand where we can learn something from our opponents good play rather than our mistakes.

He can have AK but I think the set is more possible.
If he isn't too aggressive he got a set.

Jillychemung said:

For me the size of his turn bet is textbook perfect. It's a bit more than 1/2 the pot AND gives us better than 3-1 odds if the BB calls. This is a hand where we can learn something from our opponents good play rather than our mistakes.

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Well TBH I would suggest the betsize is more likely to be an accident than by design.

After all if this guy has a set then he cold called a medium PP from MP2 (which as we all know is a poor play as we are against a MP1 open which is a much wider range than UTG/UTG+1 so we really cant think out implied odds are through the roof. It invites an either an overcall or a squeeze. The overcall means that if villian dosent make the set the likelihood of winning the pot postflop goes down. The possibility of the squeeze means that an Mp1 open and Mp2 cold call is quite likley to be 3bet by CO/BTN or Blinds and so a flop wont be seen 100% of the time.)

So with all of that bad play preflop I think its more likley the good turn bet was a fluke rather than a part of a well constructed plan.

But yes it is a good sized bet.

Why didn't you bet the turn?

If you bet on the turn (basically for value) then he still raises us we can consider the Baluga Theorem (sort of) and probably make a tough fold.

Although considering the extra money in the middle from the fishy player I'm probably going with top two. We just don't need to win as often 3 way because we are only investing a smaller portion of the money.

NB: The Baluga Theorem as usually stated is to "reconsider the strength of one pair hands to a turn raise" but it seems sensible for this to also mean "turn raises are strong, beware."

Make your c-bet bigger, like $1.60. Then reraise the flop to like $10. He could easily have AK/AQ/AT more often than a set. And KsQs/KsJs/KsTs are also likely. I don't know what slowplaying accomplishes other than making yourself unsure of whether he really has you beat or not by under repping your hand. I'm never folding this river unless I have good reads that he plays like this with sets. You tried to get fancy and ended up confusing yourself.

If you're calling turn what is your plan on river?

Personally, I'm either c/c both streets or c/f turn, depending on player. I don't like c/c then c/f when he's got less than a potsize bet remaining.

B/c followed by c/c may mean that he puts you on the flush draw and wants to take down the pot, but this is thrown out by the fish being in the pot because he'll have to win at showdown regardless...

With a flop raise and a turn bet what is your plan on the river when calling the turn? Were you hoping for check check and see a showdown? I what point did you re-evaulate your top 2-pair and realise you were behind? The river by the looks of it.

With a flop raise and a turn bet what is your plan on the river when calling the turn? Were you hoping for check check and see a showdown? At what point did you re-evaulate your top 2-pair and realise you were behind? The river by the looks of it. If it was just you and the BB fish then you can be safe you're head but looking atMP2 I think you'er behind all day on this one.