$25 NLHE Full Ring: TT facing 4 bet from CO

No Brainer

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13/11 5% 3 bet after ~200 hands
Haven't seen any of the 3 bet hands go to showdown.
Note we are about 150bbs deep

Ever calling or raising here?

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
SB ($33.69)
BB ($21.80)
UTG ($26.85)
UTG+1 ($36.23)
UTG+2 ($29.50)
MP1 ($3.92)
CO ($42.64)
Hero ($37.48)

Dealt to Hero T T

fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to $0.85, Hero raises to $3, fold, fold, CO raises to $7, Hero
 
WVHillbilly

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What do his positional stats look like? ATS? Why are you 3betting TT here?

As played, fold, but I'd much rather set mine / play position postflop than 3bet.
 
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ATS 28%, just 18% from CO. Fold to 3 bet is 50% (1/2)

3 betting for value really, he isn't opening all that wide from the CO so I was thinking that he will call the 3 bet with a fairly large part of that range.
 
c9h13no3

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I just see a flop here, you're really turning tens into a bluff against this type of opponent.
 
WVHillbilly

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ATS 28%, just 18% from CO. Fold to 3 bet is 50% (1/2)

3 betting for value really, he isn't opening all that wide from the CO so I was thinking that he will call the 3 bet with a fairly large part of that range.

So if he isn't opening that wide and he continues with presumably fewer hands than he's opening, how are we 3betting for value? I mean our equity pretty well sucks against the range he calls with right? So you're really 3betting to get him to fold, which seems like a waste of a hand like TT to me.
 
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yeh makes sense. Guess I was over estimating his calling range...
 
bgomez89

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what calling range did you have him on?
 
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Rather than overestimating his range I may have just been overestimating how well TT plays against that range.

I was thinking something along the lines of 77+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+,KJo+ which may be a little loose for this villain. Although even with this range my TT doesn't really go well if any overcards come out on the flop and even with low cards out I could get myself into trouble in a large pot, not knowing exactly where I am.

As said earlier if I had just called the initial raise I could comfortably play a small pot in position with a medium strength hand or even better, flop the set and try to get stacks in from there.
 
Double-A

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Lol, I 3bet w/ 88+ like clock work... especially against a raise from CO OTB.
 
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Rather than overestimating his range I may have just been overestimating how well TT plays against that range.

I was thinking something along the lines of 77+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+,KJo+ which may be a little loose for this villain. Although even with this range my TT doesn't really go well if any overcards come out on the flop and even with low cards out I could get myself into trouble in a large pot, not knowing exactly where I am.

As said earlier if I had just called the initial raise I could comfortably play a small pot in position with a medium strength hand or even better, flop the set and try to get stacks in from there.

I made a "knee jerk" reply earlier and thought I should qualify...

You only have TT if your cards are face up...think about how a raise, or a call, plays against this player... not your cards. You're IP against a guy who is scared to death to play poker... and he's raising from the CO... pop him... if he's got QQ+ then he'll let you know. Other than that, you'll take it down or head to the flop knowing he doesn't have KK+... proceed accordingly.

Calling w/ TT here is great in the early stages of a tournament when you aren't interested in taking down a small pot w/ a 3bet (hoping to hit a set and double up).

If we aren't 3betting w/ TT here then what is our 3bet range against a CO raise? JJ+?
 
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You only have TT if your cards are face up...think about how a raise, or a call, plays against this player... not your cards. You're IP against a guy who is scared to death to play poker... and he's raising from the CO... pop him... if he's got QQ+ then he'll let you know. Other than that, you'll take it down or head to the flop knowing he doesn't have KK+... proceed accordingly.

Calling w/ TT here is great in the early stages of a tournament when you aren't interested in taking down a small pot w/ a 3bet (hoping to hit a set and double up).

If we aren't 3betting w/ TT here then what is our 3bet range against a CO raise? JJ+?


I like your thinking about playing the player.

As far as why not to 3 bet TT in this spot. Sure we will take it down pre quite often but is that really the best way to get value from a decent hand?

Calling the initial raise here lets us see a flop in position with a hand that plays well in small pots post flop. Even without hitting a set here, on most boards we should be looking to get 1 or 2 streets of value right?

If we 3 bet and get called what is our plan post flop? Do we c bet a board with an A, K or Q? Are we getting stacks in on a low flop?
 
WVHillbilly

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I made a "knee jerk" reply earlier and thought I should qualify...

You only have TT if your cards are face up...think about how a raise, or a call, plays against this player... not your cards. You're IP against a guy who is scared to death to play poker... and he's raising from the CO... pop him... if he's got QQ+ then he'll let you know. Other than that, you'll take it down or head to the flop knowing he doesn't have KK+... proceed accordingly.

Calling w/ TT here is great in the early stages of a tournament when you aren't interested in taking down a small pot w/ a 3bet (hoping to hit a set and double up).

If we aren't 3betting w/ TT here then what is our 3bet range against a CO raise? JJ+?

Why are you talking about tournaments? Also TT plays well in position in a raised pot even without the need to hit a set. If we 3bet there are 3 things that can happen:

1) Villain can fold and we win 5bb (assume blinds fold).

2) Villain can 4bet and we lose 12bb (3bet size was a bit large imo) because we can't call a 4bet.

3) Villain can call with a range that crushes us.

He'll fold more often than either of the other 2, probably even enough to make 3betting profitable, but only marginally so.

Now if we flat, we see a flop (95% of the time the blinds don't 3bet) for 3.5bb. We can call a flop bet on almost any flop (probably about 5bb). We can take the pot on the turn a lot of times with a bet and on boards where we don't think betting the turn if checked to is best we can get to SD rather cheaply or get an additional value bet in from smaller pairs that might give up to a turn bet.

As to what range I am 3betting here, KK+/AK/some junk. Basically hands I am willing to play for stacks with preflop and bluffs. No need to do that with 22-QQ (QQ is close with some villains but I don't think it is with this one).
 
Stu_Ungar

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4 bets are almost always for value.

Against a value range TT is crushed and there is little fold equity.

If his 3 bet range is 5% then his 4 bet range is a subset of that. You wouldnt expect a players 4 bet range to be wider than his 3 bet range. So if he isnt polarising much of his 3 bet range then he is unlikely to polarise his 4 bet range more than his 3bets.

Give that, raising is -EV

The real question is why did you 3bet TT in the first place? Do you expect to be called by worse? Do you expect to fold out better?

You have a playable hand with good equity (in a small pot). He has to call a lot or raise a lot to make 3betting make sense. I dont see him raising a lot hence you cant 5bet shove. If he calls most 3bets then sure bet it for value. But then if he calls a lot you know that you are way behind when raised.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I made a "knee jerk" reply earlier and thought I should qualify...

You only have TT if your cards are face up...think about how a raise, or a call, plays against this player... not your cards. You're IP against a guy who is scared to death to play poker... and he's raising from the CO... pop him... if he's got QQ+ then he'll let you know. Other than that, you'll take it down or head to the flop knowing he doesn't have KK+... proceed accordingly.

Calling w/ TT here is great in the early stages of a tournament when you aren't interested in taking down a small pot w/ a 3bet (hoping to hit a set and double up).

If we aren't 3betting w/ TT here then what is our 3bet range against a CO raise? JJ+?


"popping him" dosent make sense.

There are 3 reasons to raise.

1.) for value
2.) as a bluff
3.) to collect dead money

there is no 4.) to pop him.

1.) Can you 3bet for value, what calls?

2.) Do you ever fold out better hands?

3.) why would you try and collect preflop dead money with a playable hand?
 
WVHillbilly

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Yeah, and besides everyone knows you wait so you can "pop em on the river".
 
Double-A

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Why are you talking about tournaments? Also TT plays well in position in a raised pot even without the need to hit a set. If we 3bet there are 3 things that can happen:

1) Villain can fold and we win 5bb (assume blinds fold).

2) Villain can 4bet and we lose 12bb (3bet size was a bit large imo) because we can't call a 4bet.

3) Villain can call with a range that crushes us.

He'll fold more often than either of the other 2, probably even enough to make 3betting profitable, but only marginally so.

Now if we flat, we see a flop (95% of the time the blinds don't 3bet) for 3.5bb. We can call a flop bet on almost any flop (probably about 5bb). We can take the pot on the turn a lot of times with a bet and on boards where we don't think betting the turn if checked to is best we can get to SD rather cheaply or get an additional value bet in from smaller pairs that might give up to a turn bet.

As to what range I am 3betting here, KK+/AK/some junk. Basically hands I am willing to play for stacks with preflop and bluffs. No need to do that with 22-QQ (QQ is close with some villains but I don't think it is with this one).

I mentioned tournament play because of this earlier comment:

"As said earlier if I had just called the initial raise I could comfortably play a small pot in position with a medium strength hand or even better, flop the set and try to get stacks in from there."

I think that's a great way to think about small/med pairs, facing a LP raise in the early stages of a tournament. When blinds are relatively small, and there isn't much money in the pot, it makes sense to see a cheap flop, flop a set, and double through. In that situation, I'd always call.

I don't ALWAYS think that way in cash games. After a LP raise, there's 4.5BB in the pot. That's enough to scrap over, sometimes, with or without the cards. In addition, with the raise coming from LP we're facing a wider part of our opponents range and maybe even a steal.

I read/understood the rest of your points and did some filtering:

3bet= 3.72 BB/Hand
Call= 5.92 BB/Hand

However, I didn't 3bet nearly as many times as I thought I would have in this situation (26%). So, the results are kinda skewed (and from a very small sample size).

Going wit that, I think you are probably right that calling is more profitable than 3betting here.

But, 3betting is still profitable... Taking table dynamics, our current image, and our opponents current temperament into consideration; I'd like to soften my argument to:

We should probably just call most of the time but not automatically so.
 
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