$25 NLHE Full Ring: Should i have folded

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KingCakeSuited

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Should i have folded on River? Or should i have upped my betsize on turn to potentially make him fold? He was button which made me think his hand range was looser, at the same time earlier plays made me think he had a bit of a tighter hand range. I deemed it unlikely for him to have a straight, so i didn't want to bet too big and potentially lose a huge pot. Maybe it was a greedy play from my side, or what do you guys think? Here is the Hand History Converter link

https://www.weaktight.com/h/5cddf047d3904316408b46c0?simple=1
 
eetenor

eetenor

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Think about ranges.

KingCakeSuited said:
Should i have folded on River? Or should i have upped my betsize on turn to potentially make him fold? He was button which made me think his hand range was looser, at the same time earlier plays made me think he had a bit of a tighter hand range. I deemed it unlikely for him to have a straight, so i didn't want to bet too big and potentially lose a huge pot. Maybe it was a greedy play from my side, or what do you guys think? Here is the Hand History Converter link

https://www.weaktight.com/h/5cddf047d3904316408b46c0?simple=1
Click to expand...

Thank you for posting.

You cold called 3 bets from SB what range should villain put you on? What range do you put villain on?

For the purpose of this 1st exercise lets just limit it to villains AA-A2 range.

Flop A96 Losing to AA AK AQ A9 A6 Tied AJ Winning A10 A8 A7 A5 A4 A3 A2

Would villain 3 bet all Ax? If not Winning vs A10

4 losing to Aces (A6 no 3 bet) 1 tie 1 win. Why lead flop? What is the one card everyone expects you to have? On the river we are still only beating 1 Ace.

Your turn bet size question? Villain has pair plus draw vs obvious one Pair of Ax. Villain is calling 3/4 turn bet 18 in pot 7.50 to call then but you have $8 more if villain hits so it is 26 -7.5 to call 3.5 to 1 the exact odds villain needs if the math matters to this villain.

The problem with our bet sizing is we have no idea our villain has 76 not AK AQ

As played your only mistake was the river call. Your villain did not expect you to fold river to that value shove. Why would villain think a bluff would work?

Hope this helps

:):)
 
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Matt Vaughan

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Cold calling this 3bet preflop is sort of debatable, but whatever, I can get behind it in some instances.

When the flop comes out though, why are we leading? This is a dry flop that heavily favors the preflop aggressor generally. As such, I'd be checking my whole range, and mostly playing it as a check/call or check/fold. This hand would be a clear check/call.

The rest of the hand sort of unravels from there, bc while we may get some value from KK-TT as played, it's super unlikely that he ever shoves river with those holdings. He also probably can't have a worse ace (and most of those make two pair by the river anyway). So yeah the whole hand is a bit weird from the flop onward, and since I'd never take this line, it's a bit hard for me to comment on the turn and river more specifically except to say that I don't anticipate our hand being good too often.
 
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Ah okay thanks for the reply guys. I definetly see what you mean, the points are really good, and im going to work on implementing those thoughts in my play. But may i ask, You said my hand was a Check/Call in this case, How do i know when to check and when to call/fold? If he bets, how do i know if i should fold my hand or call his bet? I see why leading was stupid, but when he only has a pair of 6, how does he know. It was a good idea to call my bets? If that was me in his position i would fold, because i have lowest pair, and a low kicker
 
eetenor

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Poker skill 3 streets

KingCakeSuited said:
Ah okay thanks for the reply guys. I definetly see what you mean, the points are really good, and im going to work on implementing those thoughts in my play. But may i ask, You said my hand was a Check/Call in this case, How do i know when to check and when to call/fold? If he bets, how do i know if i should fold my hand or call his bet? I see why leading was stupid, but when he only has a pair of 6, how does he know. It was a good idea to call my bets? If that was me in his position i would fold, because i have lowest pair, and a low kicker
Click to expand...


Thank you for responding.


1 Check call: we want to check call to allow villains to have a wider range of hands that are ahead of us and hands that are behind us when we have top pair and bet. Normally when we bet out on that flop a good player will fold weak hands and we get no value. Good players will continue with strong hands and we will be building a pot for them not us. Good villains may call that first bet but fold to any further bets. Always remember the river bets are the largest in size, it is those bets we want called not smaller polarized flop bets.


2 Check fold. This is where we need to think about being good at playing all streets by having board reading skills and strong "villain range reading" fundamentals.

On each street we get more data from the board and our villain's actions.

Your flop A96 If you check and call a flop bet will a good villain bet 3 streets vs you with KK QQ JJ 1010. Not likely. So if you are facing the 3rd bet on the river for stacks. You then think about the villain. Is this villain crazy. If yes we have to call not fold the river. Is this villain tight? Do tight villains turn QQ into a bluff on the river? ETC ETC with all villain types.

Firstly leading is not stupid. We always take actions that are correct for our villains. In this case leading was a great idea as your villain played poorly and had your villain not sucked out, you got lots of value from a weak player chasing outs.

If most of your player pool plays like this then you should be leading out. If most do not you should use the check call strategy as it captures more value.

If I knew this villain would chase I would lead out just the same way you did. In fact next time you are in a hand with this villain you should just bet bet bet with your best hands.

I hope you took a note on this villain and are always looking to be on this villains table.

As played with this villain and other weak chasers the key piece of data is, would villains bluff that river? If not then it is a check fold.

You ask how did villain know it was a good idea to call your bets? It was not a good idea. Villain was gambling.
Villain has 21% equity on that flop a call is terrible. A good learning exercise for you would be to input this hand into the cardschat odds calculator on flop and turn and look at villain odds for each of your bets and compare to villain equity on each street.

As a summary your game will improve if you work on your villain reads and board reads and how your villain's actions should relate to that data. Know how likely any of your villains will bluff rivers when pots are big.

Hope this helps.

:):)
 
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KingCakeSuited

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eetenor said:
Thank you for responding.


1 Check call: we want to check call to allow villains to have a wider range of hands that are ahead of us and hands that are behind us when we have top pair and bet. Normally when we bet out on that flop a good player will fold weak hands and we get no value. Good players will continue with strong hands and we will be building a pot for them not us. Good villains may call that first bet but fold to any further bets. Always remember the river bets are the largest in size, it is those bets we want called not smaller polarized flop bets.


2 Check fold. This is where we need to think about being good at playing all streets by having board reading skills and strong "villain range reading" fundamentals.

On each street we get more data from the board and our villain's actions.

Your flop A96 If you check and call a flop bet will a good villain bet 3 streets vs you with KK QQ JJ 1010. Not likely. So if you are facing the 3rd bet on the river for stacks. You then think about the villain. Is this villain crazy. If yes we have to call not fold the river. Is this villain tight? Do tight villains turn QQ into a bluff on the river? ETC ETC with all villain types.

Firstly leading is not stupid. We always take actions that are correct for our villains. In this case leading was a great idea as your villain played poorly and had your villain not sucked out, you got lots of value from a weak player chasing outs.

If most of your player pool plays like this then you should be leading out. If most do not you should use the check call strategy as it captures more value.

If I knew this villain would chase I would lead out just the same way you did. In fact next time you are in a hand with this villain you should just bet bet bet with your best hands.

I hope you took a note on this villain and are always looking to be on this villains table.

As played with this villain and other weak chasers the key piece of data is, would villains bluff that river? If not then it is a check fold.

You ask how did villain know it was a good idea to call your bets? It was not a good idea. Villain was gambling.
Villain has 21% equity on that flop a call is terrible. A good learning exercise for you would be to input this hand into the cardschat odds calculator on flop and turn and look at villain odds for each of your bets and compare to villain equity on each street.

As a summary your game will improve if you work on your villain reads and board reads and how your villain's actions should relate to that data. Know how likely any of your villains will bluff rivers when pots are big.

Hope this helps.

:):)
Click to expand...

Yes, that really helped! Thank you so much! Really Appreciate the time you took to write this :D
 
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