$25 NLHE Full Ring: QQ on scaryish board

$25 NL HE Full Ring: QQ on scaryish board

Absolute/UB Cereus No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Absolute/UB Cer http://www.flopturnriver.com/

Button ($21.70)
SB ($11.18)
BB ($14.84)
UTG ($5.75)
Hero (UTG+1) ($34.02)
MP1 ($26)
MP2 ($7.21)
MP3 ($43.16)
CO ($7.75)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with ,
1 fold, Hero bets $1, 1 fold, MP2 calls $1, MP3 calls $1, 4 folds

Flop: ($3.35) , , (3 players)
Hero bets $2.25, 1 fold, MP3 calls $2.25

Turn: ($7.85) (2 players)
Hero ??

What should I do here facing this ace plus the possible FD. Don't really have any history with the villain only had been at the table 10 or 20 hands at the table to far. Thanks in advance for any responses

I don't know the right answer, but since no one has responded I'll tell you what i do. In this situation I usually just double barrel for about 2/3 pot. If you get re-raised I would probably have to fold. This is one of the biggest flaws in my game as well. If you check here any smart villan will bet 3/4 pot or so, because you are showing weakness. My head is going all crazy just thinking about this hand, so I'm waiting to see what some other CCers have to say about this.

Wes747 said:

I don't know the right answer, but since no one has responded I'll tell you what i do. In this situation I usually just double barrel for about 2/3 pot. If you get re-raised I would probably have to fold. This is one of the biggest flaws in my game as well. If you check here any smart villan will bet 3/4 pot or so, because you are showing weakness. My head is going all crazy just thinking about this hand, so I'm waiting to see what some other CCers have to say about this.

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And why is that a bad thing? I would argue that MOST players like to bet when the line goes raise prf/cbet/check not just smart ones.
On the flop we obvs crush most villains calling ranges and the ace on the turn doesnt really change to much execpt that his Acxc now beat use and obvs his Ax floats but thats a pretty small part of his floating range imo.
But since the ace is such a awsome barrel card it means when we barrel we pretty much fold out everything we beat(besides FDs) and get raised/called by a range that crushes us.
But by c/c we allow him to bet the weak part of his range(broadways,underpairs,gutters,air,Tx ect).

So yeah I like check/calling the turn and then check/folding river(I think alot of 25nl players are gonna bet turn but dont have the balls to bluff the river completly).
But obvs any reads/stats would change this since against loose passive fish that love suited hands we can value bet here but against a unknown im not sure I like it.

I personally would be barreling this turn card, as villain will still call w/ his flush draws and Tx hands. C/c-ing doesnt accomplish a ton unless villain has complete air here, which most likely isnt the case. Also, you should be barreling this turn card as a bluff pretty much everytime so to balance that out, you should also be value betting Ax, KK-JJ, even KT/QT. If you're only betting the turn w/ bluffs and Ax hands, and c/c-ing Tx, KK-JJ you become less balanced in your lines.

This wont always apply if villain is a monkey pushing buttons (aka FISH) but in general, even the slightly less skilled will start to realize certain patterns. Plus, this mentality will definitely help when you move to higher limits so its good to start thinking about it

polakpoker4 said:

If you're only betting the turn w/ bluffs and Ax hands, and c/c-ing Tx, KK-JJ you become less balanced in your lines.

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Balancing your lines at 25nl is burning money. Especially against unknowns. Just play as exploitatively as possible.

BelgoSuisse said:

Balancing your lines at 25nl is burning money. Especially against unknowns. Just play as exploitatively as possible.

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Yeah but what does that actually mean in the context of this hand? I like betting the turn to make the hand easier to play with the side effect that our range is naturally balanced. On the river we have a bluff catcher.

BelgoSuisse said:

Balancing your lines at 25nl is burning money. Especially against unknowns. Just play as exploitatively as possible.

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Ya I agree. I put it to get him thinking about it but I still think betting the turn is good regardless.

I dont really get why balancing is important here.
Villain is a unknown 25nl player, in all liklyhood he will:
A) suck and doesnt even care/think about our range.
B) Never play against us again.

So the question imo becomes how do we make the most money in this particular spot If we dont have to worry about balancing/meta.

Thouse saying u like betting here is it because your think it is the highest ev+ line or because you want to "balance" your range/make this hand easier to play?

S93 said:

Thouse saying u like betting here is it because your think it is the highest ev+ line or because you want to "balance" your range/make this hand easier to play?

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Ya forget the balancing part but I still think its the highest ev+ line. Villain checks back Tx hands because he'll be scared of the A himself but wont fold to another bet. Flush draws may or may not bet turn so we avoid giving them a free card.

I would absolutely bet about 3/4 pot on this turn. I would say his range is MOSTLY flush draws and Tx.

Hi, Im giving you my feedback without reading other peoples responses

I think your preflop and flop bet were fine. Without a read on the remaining villain its a bit complicated. I'd assume had you been facing AA-KK-AK you would have been reraised preflop. AQ is a possibility here, but even with the flush draw present you had to bet. Your flop bet is giving him a little over 2 to 1 odds to draw to his flush so if he calls, hes making a mistake.

Now on the turn, the only hand the ace completes is the AK-AQ, possibly at this stake people call raises with any ace, I dont see too many 2-pair combos, so I personally wouldnt shut down here. If you check, he might interpret your hand as weak or scared of the ace and barrel the turn, or value bet a worse hand like 88-JJ so a check call is an option to not get bluffed off your hand.

I personally dont mind leading out here either, but its difficult with no read on the guy. But I wouldnt want a calling station to get a free flush card on the turn, hence my betting at least 3/4 pot on the turn would be my first option.

I feel that if the river is a non scare card, your hand becomes a good bluff catcher. You can check call a decent sized river bet but if he pots it or shoves with the third flush card, then you have a more difficult decision, hence why reads on the guy even if its s superficial one like '' generally tight or loose'' helps you out with your decision here.

RAFC you're worrying too much about flush possibilities. The simple fact is that we must assume that flush draws are a tiny part of villain's range without general reads to the contrary and the only reason for betting the turn would be if we think top pair hands are a decent portion of his range and that he's bad enough to stay in should we bet.

Basically what I'm trying to say is something like this:

S93 said:

So yeah I like check/calling the turn and then check/folding river(I think alot of 25nl players are gonna bet turn but dont have the balls to bluff the river completly).
But obvs any reads/stats would change this since against loose passive fish that love suited hands we can value bet here but against a unknown im not sure I like it.

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Hi Pantheon,

Maybe im beeing a little too worried about flush possibilities, but nevertheless, it has to be considered here, especially given many 25NL'ers propensity to chase, given his check-calling throughout the hand.

But IMO, giving him 2 to 1 odds on our flop bet allows us to value bet a stronger hand and have him draw against the odds to his flush simultaneously should he be chasing it.

As for our reconsidering a big river bet if a flush card falls, well as I mentionned I dont believe it automatically means a flush but few 25nl'ers have the balls to make a big river bluff hence why I feel some type read is essential here to help us narrow his range of actions.

Pantheon said:

RAFC you're worrying too much about flush possibilities. The simple fact is that we must assume that flush draws are a tiny part of villain's range without general reads to the contrary and the only reason for betting the turn would be if we think top pair hands are a decent portion of his range and that he's bad enough to stay in should we bet.

Basically what I'm trying to say is something like this:

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I think that ccing turn and cfing river is really weak. I think that we should bet the turn(fold to a raise) and then cf river