$25 NLHE Full Ring: QQ pos pre get 3Bet from the BB

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem (8 players)
SB: $36.77
BB: $25 VPIP 16% PFR 12% AGG 3.2 HANDS 5,900 3BETS IN BB 4% AND (overall 3Bet Stat is 5%) Folds to 4bets 60% (20)
UTG: $30.70
UTG+1: $32.45
MP: $25
MP+1: $23.90
CO: $31.68
BTN Hero: $25.38

Pre-flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN
5 folds, Hero raises to $0.85, SB folds, BB raises to $2.65, Hero, So what is your approach here
1.) 4bet because u have QQ and then If he jams?.
2.) Call and play pos.
3.) Easy Fold.

I hate full ring. I'm inclined to say 4b b/c you have QQ and call a 5b jam from him. I would raise to $9 or so to give the illusion of f/e.

I hate taking the call and play position line with queens because I feel like we should be trying to get as much money in pre as we can because well only two hands worry us. If we get QQ into KK or AA then so be it in my book.

But hey, this is FR and this guy has an uber tight 3b range which is obviously weighted towards JJ+ and AKo/AKs I'm sure. So with that being said screw it you should still 4b this call a 5b shove imo. Seems too nitty to not do so, even at FR.

i like number 2 is that wrong? see the flop maybe hit a set?

smokeme said:

i like number 2 is that wrong? see the flop maybe hit a set?

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I think it's wrong yes. You're hoping to hit a set on this already monster hand? It's a premium, not a pair of 5'5s you want either as much money in as possible or folding. I don't like playing Queens to a flat call.


OP: What is your image to this guy ? I think this is a big factor here. For you to have nearly 6000 hands on, I'm guessing he has the same for you so if he thinks you're a nit, it's highly unlikely he's 3betting worse here and if you're loose, I'm guessing 4betting is the best option and hoping to play for stacks.

In general though I think even against nitty players it's definitely number 1. It's wrong to just fold queens here and I'd much prefer 4betting to maybe $7-8.00 and then comfortably folding to a shove rather than out right folding to start with because he's nitty and this is FR and I can't ever see him shoving with worse than Kings. There is a high chance, even nits to 3bet wider in the BB with smaller pairs purely because of your standard wider button range so I personally think 4bet/folding is the best option here.

If you elect to call and play position and he does hold Aces/Kings, can you get away from a flop/turn if no Ace/King hits because it's harder to do that and in most cases you end up investing more and losing more.

smokeme said:

i like number 2 is that wrong? see the flop maybe hit a set?

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LOL quality

we're on the button, so our range is SUPER wide if we're decent (which i'm assuming AIC is ) so villain should be 3 betting pretty wide as well.

I've been thinking about these spots as of late tbh and I still can't decide which is the best line to take, obv its slightly situation specific, but in general:

we have QQ which is crushing our supposed range, and therefore crushing his range so getting it in is fine..

BUT

a lot of players seem to think that because the button has a wide range, we should 3 bet AQ etc to punish them, but the fact is that you fold out everything you beat and are faced with a range that pretty much crushes you imo.

the same applies here, though somewhat less.

if we 4 bet they fold out all their light 3 bets.. they can still get it in with JJ/TT (maybe?) etc, but a lot of their 5 bets are AA/KK/AK, so I like flatting behind here to keep our range crushing theirs..

on top of the fact we're IP and can get away if shown with serious resistance, I prefer flatting even though we may miss value on some flops (e.g. villain has JJ, flop comes K83)

we will be sucked out on sometimes, and we will fold the best hand sometimes.. but I like calling.

well I'm 60/40.. calling > 4 betting..

EDIT: just checked stats, 3 bet 5%.. 4% in BB? bleh this is a horrible spot, still stand by calling.. if you 4 bet his jamming range has you, so CIB/fold is a viable option.

whats his 3b vs steal?

I call, dont really like 4betting. Maybe thats bad but i never 4bet QQ in this spot.

I never ever fold here. Calling and 4betting both have their merits. Which I choose is usually based on my image and 4bet/3bet history with this player.

4betting is defo the standard here but if villains going to have a nitty 5bet range or a merged 3bet range flatting can extract more value from the weaker hands that may fold to a 4bet.

Without any further information I 4bet.

dooydoo said:

whats his 3b vs steal?

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Here

ramdeebam said:

I think it's wrong yes. You're hoping to hit a set on this already monster hand? It's a premium, not a pair of 5'5s you want either as much money in as possible or folding. I don't like playing Queens to a flat call.


OP: What is your image to this guy ? I think this is a big factor here. For you to have nearly 6000 hands on, I'm guessing he has the same for you so if he thinks you're a nit, it's highly unlikely he's 3betting worse here and if you're loose, I'm guessing 4betting is the best option and hoping to play for stacks.

In general though I think even against nitty players it's definitely number 1. It's wrong to just fold queens here and I'd much prefer 4betting to maybe $7-8.00 and then comfortably folding to a shove rather than out right folding to start with because he's nitty and this is FR and I can't ever see him shoving with worse than Kings. There is a high chance, even nits to 3bet wider in the BB with smaller pairs purely because of your standard wider button range so I personally think 4bet/folding is the best option here.

If you elect to call and play position and he does hold Aces/Kings, can you get away from a flop/turn if no Ace/King hits because it's harder to do that and in most cases you end up investing more and losing more.

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He prob Thinks I'm an ok Reg.
I wrote this in My Blog A couple years ago
Wow now what ,shove on them ?? If they are shortstacked probally not a bad idea but if they are full stacked and not a supertight player like 11 vpip the best bet is call them and play postflop poker. Hopefully the K or A dont hit .And if they hit and they have JJ or less are they going to fire out on the flop?? Probally not .. you might be able to at least save most of your stack and get to showdown. you might even win the hand..But reshoving on them preflop typically is a bad choice. Because they will usually call with only a better hand KK,AA or AK ..

call pre

If A or K on flop:
call flop if bet into
fold turn if bet into

If no A or K on flop:
raise flop

So 5900 hands and you've given us NOTHING as far as what hands you've seen him get AIPF (you should be noting this), any hands you've seen him 3bet and show down, or if you've ever seen him 5bet shove with a bluff???

There is more to the game than stats and against someone you've seen play 6K hands, you should KNOW much better than us how to best play QQ here.

WVHillbilly said:

So 5900 hands and you've given us NOTHING as far as what hands you've seen him get AIPF (you should be noting this), any hands you've seen him 3bet and show down, or if you've ever seen him 5bet shove with a bluff???

There is more to the game than stats and against someone you've seen play 6K hands, you should KNOW much better than us how to best play QQ here.

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Ok so looking at his known 3b (14) stats we are ahead or tying with 11/14 there. I'm still maintaining that we should 4b here, but you could make the case for calling QQ here IP I suppose and playing accordingly based on those stats. Have you ever seen him 5b? (I'd assume it would be only AA/KK and maybe AKs from this guy)

I hardly see merit in 4betting QQ here, for similar reasons that i wouldnt be raising flops that didnt have an A or K in them. If he's a semi decent reg then i guess he's 3betting you with value, and some bluffs. 4betting and getting in is fine but regulars here arent stacking JJ very often in this spot, so it seems like 4betting is just folding out bluffs and then flipping. Similarly raising flop without A or K in is just gonna fold his bluffs, where he may continue bluffing if we just flat call. Just how i see it.

Calling in position keeps his bluffs in and he will bluff them on lots of flops. If he has AA or KK, we may lose our full stack anyways which doesnt matter, or even better we may occasionally get away from losing a full stack because we can pot control in position/hand read better.

if we 4b and he shoves i would have to fold because he will only have AA,KK,AK,QQ (maybe) and we are behind. Essentially we turn QQ into a bluff.

I dont want to fold either because he has room for worse in his 3b range.

I like to call and play well postflop. I cant tell you what to do postflop because i dont see a flop but understand his range and how it will connect with the board and play accordingly.

If we get to the flop, don't raise it ffs.

baudib1 said:

If we get to the flop, don't raise it ffs.

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?? not sure what that means??

for f**** sakes

Oh lol got it

dooydoo said:

if we 4b and he shoves i would have to fold because he will only have AA,KK,AK,QQ (maybe) and we are behind.

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Even if his range is {QQ+,AK} we still snap call!

Hand 0: 40.207% { QQ }
Hand 1: 59.793% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

Let's say we 4bet to $6.50 and villain shoves
The pot = 35c + $6.50 + $25 = $31.85
We need to call $18.50.

We need ($31.85 + $18.50)/18.50 equity = We need 36% equity to call even vs the toughest range villain could possibly have.

Yeah we cant 4bet and fold that would be silly. 4betting seems like a mistake in the first place as it allows our opponent to play perfect against us, and us to make a mistake. Not what we really want in poker.

Deco said:

Even if his range is {QQ+,AK} we still snap call!

Hand 0: 40.207% { QQ }
Hand 1: 59.793% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

Let's say we 4bet to $6.50 and villain shoves
The pot = 35c + $6.50 + $25 = $31.85
We need to call $18.50.

We need ($31.85 + $18.50)/18.50 equity = We need 36% equity to call even vs the toughest range villain could possibly have.

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Mathematically vs that range yes. What i shouldve said was we dont know that he gets in that range preflop. He might be only all in pre with KK+, we dont know. So when i 4b there and get shoved on, i want to fold unless i have proof that he can have AK in that spot.

dooydoo said:

Mathematically vs that range yes. What i shouldve said was we dont know that he gets in that range preflop. He might be only all in pre with KK+, we dont know. So when i 4b there and get shoved on, i want to fold unless i have proof that he can have AK in that spot.

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Yes but if you commit to 4betting you're never folding.