$25 NLHE Full Ring: QQ, deep at Rush Poker

NineLions

NineLions

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$25 NL HE Full Ring: QQ, deep at Rush Poker

I don't have a lot of experience playing deep at cash tables as my sessions aren't normally that long, but these situations come up a lot more often playing rush poker.



Full Tilt, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

BTN: $20.10 (80.4 bb)
SB: $41.67 (166.7 bb)
BB: $10 (40 bb)
UTG+1: $31.75 (127 bb)
UTG+2: $45.09 (180.4 bb)
MP1: $23.66 (94.6 bb)
Hero (MP2): $48.22 (192.9 bb)
MP3: $17.16 (68.6 bb)
CO: $36.15 (144.6 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP2 with Q
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Q
diamond.gif

UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $1, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $3, 5 folds, UTG+2 calls $2

Flop: ($6.35) 3
club.gif
T
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9
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(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero ??


What's our plan on this flop, and generally for the rest of the hand?
 
slycbnew

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I'm not great at deepstack play, but...

We have the best hand pf the vast majority of the time, and we probably still have the best hand. The flop, though, is semi-coordinated and hits villain's range reasonably well. Not looking to play a big pot deepstacked.

I size my cbet smaller than I normally would (esp here in rp where it's unlikely Villain has any clue what my cbet sizing means), which is going to fold out a chunk of Villain's range unless he likes to float oop. I'm vulnerable to a c/r bluff - but I don't think many hands are going to c/r here, other than hands we're way behind and one hand we're ahead of (JJ).

I'm looking for non-broadway (a Q isn't scary obv) and non-straight cards on the turn. While I'm betting a lot of turns (esp blanks like 2-6), my bet is again smaller for pot control (even half pot should be enough to fold out floats and charges any sd's appropriately) - on broadway cards other than a Q, I'm checking behind for pot control and to induce river bluffs.
 
NineLions

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So you're looking for 2 or 3 streets of value generally, barring overs or say an 8?

Tough part can be putting him on a hand, esp. at crack poker. But I think AA/KK are possibilities, QQ (though obv not likely here),JJ/TT, maybe even 99. Also possible would be AK since this is full ring and only $25nl, maybe even AQs or AJs.

Given that I thought that AA/KK were not out of the range of possibilities here and given that I didn't want to get bluffed of my hand by AK/JJ, plus I was probably too concerned about the stack sizes, I opted to check behind the flop, essentially playing wa/wb. Does that make any sense?
 
thepokerkid123

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Given that I thought that AA/KK were not out of the range of possibilities here and given that I didn't want to get bluffed of my hand by AK/JJ, plus I was probably too concerned about the stack sizes, I opted to check behind the flop, essentially playing wa/wb. Does that make any sense?

Yep.

If the turn is a blank and he checks to you, I think it's time to start value betting.

I think at least one decent sized bet should go in on the turn and river here (possibly also a value raise on the river, depending on what cards hit and what action takes place). This obviously changes if an A hits on the turn where it might be a check behind, but an A on the river wouldn't bother me.



I could easily be completely wrong about this hand though. Rush poker + deep stacked post flop play = :eek:
 
slycbnew

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I'd be surprised to see AA/KK, so I'm thinking we're ahead, but I haven't played much rp... I think we can get two streets of value from several hands, esp Tx and Jx hands. I do want to keep the pot relatively small, though (which encourages Tx hands to stay in as well).

I'm not sure I like checking the flop behind, unless we're intending to call almost any turn card - I'd rather leave myself open to a flop c/r, which I think we'll rarely be ahead of and can fold fairly easily (gross, but...) than leaving us open to a bluff turn bet. Leading out both flop and turn also allows us to set the price of seeing the river (assuming we don't get raised).

I think there's alot of merit to checking behind/calling turn as a bluff catcher, but I'm going to have a problem calling a substantial river bet unimproved if we take this line. I'd expect a bluff to shut down on the river - the problem I have, though, is that Tx may not think they're bluffing.

I'm kinda chicken here... :D
 
thepokerkid123

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I'd be surprised to see AA/KK, so I'm thinking we're ahead, but I haven't played much rp... I think we can get two streets of value from several hands, esp Tx and Jx hands. I do want to keep the pot relatively small, though (which encourages Tx hands to stay in as well).

I agree we're ahead a lot. It's just that there's a problem with having a deep stack + rush nits + no history against the opponent + vulnerable hand. I know you see this problem, I'm just justifying the flop check.
I think we really have to check the flop or turn for pot control.
It seems to be a question of risking a scare card on the turn compared to building a pot early with a hand that needs some pot control.

My choice is to risk a scary turn card. Our tolerance level of turn card scariness (a highly technical term, I know) can be a lot higher when we check the flop because the pot is smaller.
However, unlike your approach of betting the flop which allows you to fold a lot if you're beat, checking the flop will result in paying off better hands more often. I think this is counter balanced by building the pot later in the hand though as we lose a smaller pot when we're beat and can't get away from our hand.



I think there's alot of merit to checking behind/calling turn as a bluff catcher, but I'm going to have a problem calling a substantial river bet unimproved if we take this line. I'd expect a bluff to shut down on the river - the problem I have, though, is that Tx may not think they're bluffing.

I don't think checking the flop and calling the turn is bluff catching. After we check the flop a lot of hands we beat are going to think they're good.
In my opinion after checking the flop the hand is being played purely for value, just with two streets of betting remaining instead of 3.


I'm kinda chicken here... :D

Me too.

I hope we can get some more responses to this thread since there so far doesn't seem to be any obvious optimal line.
 
KardKlub

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Im c-betting this board with 100% of my range, Having pocket Qs is a bonus. Im probably betting around $5.50, then shoving any non scarey turn card. when checked too,

If he raises the flop im probably folding, but i might call if the raise is gay, and use my position to fit or fold on the turn.
 
S93

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Im c-betting this board with 100% of my range, Having pocket Qs is a bonus. Im probably betting around $5.50, then shoving any non scarey turn card. when checked too,

If he raises the flop im probably folding, but i might call if the raise is gay, and use my position to fit or fold on the turn.
You have it as a standard play to jam 180BB into a 60-80BB pot with a overpair on realtively dry boards?

I kinda like to cbet 5$ here(and hate my self when i fold to a c/r) then check back any turn and valuebet/call river.
The way i see it where probably only geting two streets from worse against most oponents(could get 3 from JJ/AT but its such a small part of his range) his range should be alitle wider then if you both had 100BB and this board doesnt really smash our range so we can expect calls from alot worse like most PPs,Tx,straight draws and random floats but when we barrel i think where folding out alot of the stuff we beat and geting owned by sets and odd AA/KK so we let him bet the river or get him to cry call his 88/JT ect.

Just my 2cents...
 
NineLions

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I'd be surprised to see AA/KK, so I'm thinking we're ahead, but I haven't played much rp... I think we can get two streets of value from several hands, esp Tx and Jx hands. I do want to keep the pot relatively small, though (which encourages Tx hands to stay in as well).

..............

I'm kinda chicken here... :D


I thought I was chicken by checking the flop? :D

About the range; I dunno. So far in RP I've been up against AA limp/called from middle position, AA flatted in the blinds after a raise and call, and twice paid off small amounts to QQ open limped from UTG folded to me in the big blind, as well as AK open limp/call from mid position so off course my KT wasn't good when I iso-raised from the button and the flop came KKx. Also had KJs flat my 4 bet preflop.


General question:

What are we expecting AK to do if we bet? I hate myself if I check the flop and an A or K comes on the turn, but I don't flat AK to a 3 bet OOP, so I don't know what to expect from someone who will do that. If I bet JJ will call and we'll get value, but how often do you think that someone who flats AK OOP to a 3 bet is going to 1) fold, 2) call, 3) raise a flop bet?
 
WVHillbilly

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At Rush Poker I think you see AK fold OOP most of the time while occasionally flatting (rarely raising).

If you check back the flop (not saying I would) you have to call the turn no matter what the card is. If I'm villain here I'm betting my entire range after you check behind on the flop.
 
ImolAyrton

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One of the best flops you can wish dude. Rainbow flop, no overcards.

Offcourse bet, why would you check this and give him a free card?
 
slycbnew

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If AK flats oop, I'd expect it to call a cbet a lot of the time on this board and fold on any non-AK turn.

If you check back the flop (not saying I would) you have to call the turn no matter what the card is. If I'm villain here I'm betting my entire range after you check behind on the flop.

This is why I think it's braver to check behind on the flop. We can expect a turn check w air against a passive villain, but RP means not having good reads most of the time.

I like sindri's cbet flop and check behind turn line, kinda combines the value of a cbet being called by worse and possibly induces a river bluff.
 
NineLions

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At Rush Poker I think you see AK fold OOP most of the time while occasionally flatting (rarely raising).

If you check back the flop (not saying I would) you have to call the turn no matter what the card is. If I'm villain here I'm betting my entire range after you check behind on the flop.


If AK folds most of the time to a 3 bet OOP at RP, then it seems some we're behind (TT/99, some chance of AA/KK) and some we're ahead of (JJ, some but not all AK) plus some random stuff on both sides (T9, JT, AT, ect).

And yeah, if I check the flop then I'm planning to call the turn no matter what the card.


If AK flats oop, I'd expect it to call a cbet a lot of the time on this board and fold on any non-AK turn.

This is why I think it's braver to check behind on the flop. We can expect a turn check w air against a passive villain, but RP means not having good reads most of the time.

I like sindri's cbet flop and check behind turn line, kinda combines the value of a cbet being called by worse and possibly induces a river bluff.


I guess I thought if AK flats OOP, then it folds to a c-bet on this flop. But that's where I don't usually play myself so I have no idea, which is why I asked the question.

Because I thought AK folds this flop most times that we bet, then we're only getting money from JJ, as well as getting money in when we're behind. Mind you, combinitorially there are more AK than TT/99, or AA/KK that might flat preflop, so if half of AK flat and half fold pre, and half call a c-bet and half fold the c-bet, ....
 
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Bet out absolutely 100% positively. Easy easy easy to see him having something like KQ, AQ, etc. Very hard to determine what I'd do without seeing the next move, but basic strategy: big raise, consider strongly and probably have to fold. Call then check, bet out. Call then bet, call. I mean it all depends on the next cards if he just calls...flush draws, straights, etc
 
KardKlub

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You have it as a standard play to jam 180BB into a 60-80BB pot with a overpair on realtively dry boards?


Just my 2cents...

What type of hands are in your value range on a board like this?

You want his whole stack in while your ahead, If you c bet 5.50 on flop and get called then c bet the turn 15.00 into 17.35 and get called by a hand that just made more equity then if the river card is a bitch then what do you do?

Your left maybe having to call a bet into a pot of 47 with 25 left behind.

Why would you leave yourself in this position.

Seen as your deep stacked why would you miss a value bet on the turn, you need these streets to get the money in putting him to a decision about whether or not your full of bull, a draw or a monster.

If he has nothing why give him a cheap ride to a five outer where you lose big but could have picked up a small pot instead.

You need to win alot of small pots, loose some middle pots to win alot of big pots.
 
S93

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What type of hands are in your value range on a board like this?

You want his whole stack in while your ahead, If you c bet 5.50 on flop and get called then c bet the turn 15.00 into 17.35 and get called by a hand that just made more equity then if the river card is a bitch then what do you do?

Your left maybe having to call a bet into a pot of 47 with 25 left behind.

Why would you leave yourself in this position.

Seen as your deep stacked why would you miss a value bet on the turn, you need these streets to get the money in putting him to a decision about whether or not your full of bull, a draw or a monster.

If he has nothing why give him a cheap ride to a five outer where you lose big but could have picked up a small pot instead.

You need to win alot of small pots, loose some middle pots to win alot of big pots.
Just seems to me by doing this u allow him to fold every hand we beat(since honestly what hands calls that we beat? JJ and AT? maybe but alot of people are folding them imo) and geting owned by ever hand that beats us.
Any one mind running the numbers how often he needs to fold so we turn a profit asuming he only calls with 2pairs,sets,AA/KK.

Just seems that lines doesnt get called by anything worse and doesnt fold out anything better imo...
 
slycbnew

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If Villain only calls w better hands and never w worse hands, it's a losing play all the way around, a shove accomplishes nothing - there's no calculation that can show him folding as making this a profitable play.

The only hope for that line is that Villain would be bad enough to put in 180bb's w JJ/Tx/9x/J8/87. JJ is a remote possibility imo, but I don't see the other hands calling a turn shove without a read that Villain's really bad.

This deep, an overpair to the board isn't going to get us 3 streets of pot sized value unless Villain's pretty bad - and even if he's bad enough to bet a worse hand strongly enough for us to get 180bb's in the middle, I don't think we can take the heat of him pushing hard enough to get 180bb's in the middle. And if he can take the heat of Hero pushing to get 180bb's in the middle, we're almost certainly beat (just re-phrasing what sindri's already said).

ChuckTs wrote a nice quick article on his website on reasons for betting that's applicable here - betting because we believe we have the best hand is not a good reason to bet, and ChuckTs explains why there.
 
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I just make my average 2/3-3/4 pot size bet here. If you do this often enough, a c-bet, villain can't get much of a read off it. Oh wait, this is rush. No reads. I don't really see this as wa/wb, I think betting out is probably the best thing. Not a shove though.
 
S93

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IfVillain only calls w better hands and never w worse hands, it's a losing play all the way around, a shove accomplishes nothing - t. here's no calculation that can show him folding as making this a profitable play

The only hope for that line is that Villain would be bad enough to put in 180bb's w JJ/Tx/9x/J8/87. JJ is a remote possibility imo, but I don't see the other hands calling a turn shove without a read that Villain's really bad.

This deep, an overpair to the board isn't going to get us 3 streets of pot sized value unless Villain's pretty bad - and even if he's bad enough to bet a worse hand strongly enough for us to get 180bb's in the middle, I don't think we can take the heat of him pushing hard enough to get 180bb's in the middle. And if he can take the heat of Hero pushing to get 180bb's in the middle, we're almost certainly beat (just re-phrasing what sindri's already said).

ChuckTs wrote a nice quick article on his website on reasons for betting that's applicable here - betting because we believe we have the best hand is not a good reason to bet, and ChuckTs explains why there.
I agree with every thing in your post but i have to argue semantics :D.

Say we get to the turn and the pot is 16$ and we jam and villain folds every thing but sets(just make up any % of his range, say he folds 95% of his range,i know its not realistic but dont expect that in argumentive posts :p) where still gonna make a profit by getting him to fold all the worse hands because all the money allready in the pot.

I agree its a bad play since where usualy just folding worse/called by better and most lines are gonna yieled a higher ev with less of "**** SET!" "I HATE VARIENCE" moments

But just because a play is "bad" doesnt necerly mean it has a -ev.


Atleast i think so. Maybe im just having a brain fart...
 
slycbnew

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Agreed :D - I just meant that there's no way for it to be +Ev (i.e., get us more money) if nothing worse calls and nothing better folds - like you say, I think it's semantics...
 
KardKlub

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This is rush poker, nobody with any good skill would give this 5 mins. Most players just don't understand why they should stay away. 88 might call you down, without any good double barrel cards on the turn. Fish always have you on ak.

My point is to stack him and how to get all the chips in, that's all. Not everyone in this game calls you down because they have you squashed.
 
NineLions

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Im c-betting this board with 100% of my range, Having pocket Qs is a bonus. Im probably betting around $5.50, then shoving any non scarey turn card. when checked too,

One of the best flops you can wish dude. Rainbow flop, no overcards.

Offcourse bet, why would you check this and give him a free card?

Bet out absolutely 100% positively. Easy easy easy to see him having something like KQ, AQ, etc. Very hard to determine what I'd do without seeing the next move, but basic strategy: big raise, consider strongly and probably have to fold. Call then check, bet out. Call then bet, call. I mean it all depends on the next cards if he just calls...flush draws, straights, etc


A comment to those that feel this is pretty straightforward; This hand is not a raise from mid position and being called behind, or me raising a midposition limper and being called. In either of those situations betting this flop is straightforward, especially getting value/charging draws from players holding 88/77/98/JT/QJ ect.

But this is an early position raise, being 3 bet preflop by me, being flatted by someone who 1) had what they felt was an early position hand for a full ring table, and 2) is still willing to play that hand out of position in a 3 bet pot. Mind you, this is RP and only $25nl, but still I expect the opponent's range of hands to be narrower most of the time, as opposed to if the hand had not been 3 bet preflop or when they didn't start with an early position raise.

In other words a lot of the 88/77/JT/QJ and even AK that might have raised originally would have folded preflop to the 3 bet. Some will still be there to be sure, but enough will have folded to make this not as straightforward as if it had not been 1) raised from UTG+1 and 2) 3 bet.
 
WVHillbilly

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At Rush, fairly deep, I kind of like the check flop / call / call line.

I see a ton of weird crap being done at these tables with KK+. I do think if we check the flop we should probably call 2 streets regardless of the turn/river cards. Basically if I check this flop I'm closing my eyes and calling the rest of the way. Kind of scary but likely profitable.
 
KardKlub

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all the same ninelions, you 3- bet UTG+2, what does that say about your hand? Insanely strong, its not like you were in the co or button.

If he had anything to match the value of the Qs he would have 4 bet.

Lets start really thinking about poker.....okay
 
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