$25 NLHE Full Ring: Play KK like a passive fish vs nit reg

O

orangepeeleo

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 15/6/1

PokerStars - $0.25 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP+1: $10.21 (VPIP: 39.39, PFR: 18.18, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 35)
CO: $9.74 (VPIP: 30.77, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)
BTN: $25.00 (VPIP: 9.38, PFR: 9.38, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 32)
SB: $25.60 (VPIP: 14.93, PFR: 13.43, 3Bet Preflop: 6.90, Hands: 67)
BB: $30.74 (VPIP: 14.58, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 48)
UTG: $25.71 (VPIP: 20.51, PFR: 20.51, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 40)
UTG+1: $32.37 (VPIP: 15.19, PFR: 7.59, 3Bet Preflop: 3.45, Hands: 82)
Hero (UTG+2): $29.75
MP: $25.00 (VPIP: 17.50, PFR: 13.75, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 82)

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has K:diamond: K:heart:

fold, UTG+1 raises to $1.00, Hero calls $1.00, fold, fold, CO calls $1.00, fold, fold, fold

Flop: ($3.35, 3 players) 3:diamond: 8:spade: 5:heart:
UTG+1 bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50, CO calls $1.50

Turn: ($7.85, 3 players) 2:club:
UTG+1 bets $3.25, Hero calls $3.25, CO calls $3.25

River: ($17.60, 3 players) J:club:
UTG+1 bets $5.50, Hero calls $5.50, CO calls $3.99 and is all-in


So a nitty opener opens UTG and we have KK, first time he's opened UTG but only 64 hands like we can never 3bet fold here pre, but in this spot, with a seemingly nit dude, if I 3bet here and get 4bet I'm not very happy.... so I flat, which kinda works a little because the fish shorty flats behind, but still sucks I know.

I then go into pot control mode for the whole hand and I feel like this was waaaaay to passive, it keeps the fish in but there needs to be a raise here somewhere, just not exactly sure when, as because of the flat pre and then the flat otf, I feel like 1 pair isnt great if we raise and get stacks in, is this too nitty or, now that we're MW, are we happy just playing for a med size pot and crossing fingers and toes??
 
acky100

acky100

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you're still being way too attached to your hand rather than thinking about ranges the way you speak about this hand.

you played it fine imo, you don't need to raise just because you have KK, also there is nothing wrong with sometimes 3betting KK and then folding when you know they have AA. Small sample here to say that 3betting is bad but flatting is cool.

wp


edit: inb4 everyone says 3bet 5bet KK 100% cause its cooler if we lose

edit edit: just realised he raised 4x pre, yeah im flatting this like 100% vs this guy.
 
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John A

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Way too small of a sample to know how tight he is in early. You're deep enough where I would make a small 3-bet to ISO since you're in such early position, and you don't end up having people behind you very often. Then you can still call most 4-bets this way as well if he does, and you'll keep a lot of his 3-bet calling range in, which you're still doing great against. I mean, I don't think you can say you have such a great read in ~80 hands to know he'll never 4-bet AK.

I'd still look to raise the turn for value. I wouldn't raise large, he's passive enough that if he comes back over the top then you're probably not looking at TT-QQ often enough, but he would call with that same range to a well sized raise.
 
Deco

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Way too small of a sample to know how tight he is in early. You're deep enough where I would make a small 3-bet to ISO since you're in such early position, and you don't end up having people behind you very often. Then you can still call most 4-bets this way as well if he does, and you'll keep a lot of his 3-bet calling range in, which you're still doing great against. I mean, I don't think you can say you have such a great read in ~80 hands to know he'll never 4-bet AK.

I'd still look to raise the turn for value. I wouldn't raise large, he's passive enough that if he comes back over the top then you're probably not looking at TT-QQ often enough, but he would call with that same range to a well sized raise.

Ditto
Its a bit thin though so I don't hate it as played but I think his sizing heavily negates sets and aces postflop. Whilst his vpip/pfr gap makes me belueve he'll continue with far more of his opening range than KK+.
 
acky100

acky100

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I like calling because we are making money in this spot by extracting as much value vs the shortish fish as possible, the reg isn't going to **** up anywhere with TT and decide to give us more value if we raise, and when he bets 3 times i think his range is pretty strong betting into two people when there are no flush draws etc, like QQ+, and sets is a good part of his range here, we shouldnt expect him to bluff with a hand like AJ twice, so i'd rather keep flatting, let the fish make the biggest mistakes, and keep the regs range wide enough that KK is ahead of a good chunk of it.

I only like 3betting pre if villain is likely to make mistakes vs it, considering he has 4x pre and looks like he has a super tight raising range i'd rather just flat pre and be against a range we have much more equity against, whilst keeping the fish in as to be fair, that is where our money comes from, not trying to make a 6% raising range (or less?) make stacking off mistakes vs us. I know sample size sample size bla bla bla, but we work off the information we have and it is infinitely more likely this guy will turn out to be a 15/6 than a 15/13.

That said its 25nl and people play bad, can't slate a 3bet too much but would much prefer it after we had 3bet history with him, otherwise much more in favor of flatting, 3betting from this position looks so strong and vs some people will literally end up with you turning KK into a bluff and being confused as to why you are always running into KK+ when the money goes in.
 
John A

John A

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I like calling because we are making money in this spot by extracting as much value vs the shortish fish as possible, the reg isn't going to **** up anywhere with TT and decide to give us more value if we raise, and when he bets 3 times i think his range is pretty strong betting into two people when there are no flush draws etc, like QQ+, and sets is a good part of his range here, we shouldnt expect him to bluff with a hand like AJ twice, so i'd rather keep flatting, let the fish make the biggest mistakes, and keep the regs range wide enough that KK is ahead of a good chunk of it.

I only like 3betting pre if villain is likely to make mistakes vs it, considering he has 4x pre and looks like he has a super tight raising range i'd rather just flat pre and be against a range we have much more equity against, whilst keeping the fish in as to be fair, that is where our money comes from, not trying to make a 6% raising range (or less?) make stacking off mistakes vs us. I know sample size sample size bla bla bla, but we work off the information we have and it is infinitely more likely this guy will turn out to be a 15/6 than a 15/13.

That said its 25nl and people play bad, can't slate a 3bet too much but would much prefer it after we had 3bet history with him, otherwise much more in favor of flatting, 3betting from this position looks so strong and vs some people will literally end up with you turning KK into a bluff and being confused as to why you are always running into KK+ when the money goes in.

You don't know a fish is coming in or not. You don't know will be in the pot.

Once the fish is in, he only have $7 left on the turn. Still very probable fish calls even if you raise.
 
acky100

acky100

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You don't know a fish is coming in or not. You don't know will be in the pot.

Once the fish is in, he only have $7 left on the turn. Still very probable fish calls even if you raise.

Sure but this backs up my argument for flatting no?

Fish comes along more when we flat (that's a fact right?)

Fish only has $7 we are under no pressure to make a raise to get his stack by the river.

and again we keep the regs range as wide as possible which is important when ranges are so defined, which imo they are.

Just my thoughts though.
 
O

orangepeeleo

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I like calling because we are making money in this spot by extracting as much value vs the shortish fish as possible, the reg isn't going to **** up anywhere with TT and decide to give us more value if we raise, and when he bets 3 times i think his range is pretty strong betting into two people when there are no flush draws etc, like QQ+, and sets is a good part of his range here, we shouldnt expect him to bluff with a hand like AJ twice, so i'd rather keep flatting, let the fish make the biggest mistakes, and keep the regs range wide enough that KK is ahead of a good chunk of it.

I only like 3betting pre if villain is likely to make mistakes vs it, considering he has 4x pre and looks like he has a super tight raising range i'd rather just flat pre and be against a range we have much more equity against, whilst keeping the fish in as to be fair, that is where our money comes from, not trying to make a 6% raising range (or less?) make stacking off mistakes vs us. I know sample size sample size bla bla bla, but we work off the information we have and it is infinitely more likely this guy will turn out to be a 15/6 than a 15/13.

That said its 25nl and people play bad, can't slate a 3bet too much but would much prefer it after we had 3bet history with him, otherwise much more in favor of flatting, 3betting from this position looks so strong and vs some people will literally end up with you turning KK into a bluff and being confused as to why you are always running into KK+ when the money goes in.

This is a great post and I completely agree with everything.

Didnt think I'd get as much from posting this hand so thanks for the replys guys.

UTG has JJ and shortie has 99 here fwiw
 
John A

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Sure but this backs up my argument for flatting no?

Fish comes along more when we flat (that's a fact right?)

Fish only has $7 we are under no pressure to make a raise to get his stack by the river.

and again we keep the regs range as wide as possible which is important when ranges are so defined, which imo they are.

Just my thoughts though.

We aren't worried about getting fishes $7. He's likely bad and will still come along with 99+ on the turn. We want to get more value from big and mid pairs from an opponent who has a deeper stack. You have at least about 70% equity versus his turn betting range, and if you can get him to call w/ JJ+ if you size your raise correctly. You only have a slight equity advantage versus his calling range on the turn, but if you want to crush you need to make sure you're taking every equity advantage that you can.

If you are only seeing AA here, then you should be folding almost your entire range pre-flop against a lot of these opponents because they are prevalent at full ring games. I agree though, it's easier to just call and keep his weaker range in, but you are missing value.
 
acky100

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Ugh the reason im against it is because i think when we raise with a fish in the pot we obviously rep value, and i don't see how we can just expect the reg to call a raise with hands like TT-QQ once we raise, and then put more money into the pot presumably on the river to make your line that much better than mine.

Of course to crush we should take every equity advantage we can, but im pretty sure this spot is not going to make very much difference to your bottom line either way you play it, my experience vs nitty full ring regs tells me they definitely find folds with TT-QQ a good % of the time when a raise is put in here, and this is my main reason perhaps for not liking this line as much, where does the extra value come from raising? I struggle seeing how there is more when we raise, than when we just keep his range wide, let him keep the betting lead and let him put money into the pot himself.
 
John A

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Ugh the reason im against it is because i think when we raise with a fish in the pot we obviously rep value, and i don't see how we can just expect the reg to call a raise with hands like TT-QQ once we raise, and then put more money into the pot presumably on the river to make your line that much better than mine.

Of course to crush we should take every equity advantage we can, but im pretty sure this spot is not going to make very much difference to your bottom line either way you play it, my experience vs nitty full ring regs tells me they definitely find folds with TT-QQ a good % of the time when a raise is put in here, and this is my main reason perhaps for not liking this line as much, where does the extra value come from raising? I struggle seeing how there is more when we raise, than when we just keep his range wide, let him keep the betting lead and let him put money into the pot himself.

I understand what you're saying, but call or raise the turn isn't much difference in terms of conveying strength. If the fish was full stacked then that's going to look strong. Are you worried about a fish with less than 30 BBs usually in a spot like this? The board is so low, a fish is going to stack off with just about anything at this point.
 
AlfieAA

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Looks good to me, dont like raising here either, if you did re raise the flop/turn then the fish prob folds and its left to you and the UTG.....so keeping the fish in by stationing is like a raise in itself...I think lol
 
Aleksei

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I kinda think flatting raise here is super exploitative, since literally the only think you're behind is AA. You need a very specific read he will never ever ever flat 3bet with worse than KK, and KK has no redraws so isoing is always a good idea, plus you're in position and deep so I would be pretty comfortable calling a 4bet and seeing what develops otf.

After 3bet and 4bet vs a nit, yeah, pot-controlling is perfectly fine -- he won't have enough AA for you to be behind, but he'll have enough that you probably have pretty bad RIOs for betting.

Also this is why I effing hate FR.
 
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