$25 NLHE Full Ring: Over-shove Vs. Two Fish

$25 NL HE Full Ring: Over-shove Vs. Two Fish

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 52/12/1.4

Whiskey is 52/12/1.4, Ghost is 33/19/0.7

Had a hand like this last month where I put in a pot-sized raise, villains folded. I got a few comments about shoving flops like these, as we'll get called by sets, two pair hands, hands with a pair and a straight draw, flush draws, ect. Do we like the shove?

MP2: $20.15 (80.6 bb)
MP3: $4.55 (18.2 bb)
CO: $25 (100 bb)
BTN: $5 (20 bb)
Hero (SB): $25.25 (101 bb)
BB: $15 (60 bb)
UTG+1: $24.50 (98 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with 5 6
MP1 posts BB and a dead SB, UTG+1 folds, MP1 checks, 2 folds, CO calls $0.25, BTN folds, Hero completes, BB checks

Flop: ($1.10) 9 7 8 (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP1 bets $0.75, CO calls $0.75, Hero raises to $25 and is all-in.
This is 25nl...I didn't see .10/.25 anywhere..

Uhmm, weird hand. I think the preflop call is debatable. I don't like the shove, what hand could call you other than T6 and JT? Sure you're defending against the draws but there's no value in it.

I don't mind the concept, but I think the pot's too small for it in this case. Sets are almost certainly still calling you but and maybe two pair, but for a bet that big I think almost everything else you've mentioned (ie: stuff that's gotta be worried their outs might not even be good) probably folds - even in the hands of villains with stats like this.

I definitely raise, maybe to about $2 hoping for a three-bet though.

I was thinking, wow, the Shrog is moving up fast. I've changed it, we'll need to make the options 5/10/25/50 etc.

I don't like the shove because it looks like exactly what it is, the bottom of the straight...but it depends how bad villains are, and your villains look pretty bad. There's not much in the pot, though. Generally, I prefer putting in a solid raise and letting them pay to chase.

spore said:

Uhmm, weird hand. I think the preflop call is debatable. I don't like the shove, what hand could call you other than T6 and JT? Sure you're defending against the draws but there's no value in it.

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No value in the shove? its a limped pot and the flop is just about every limpers wet dream and hits there range so hard the all got a black eye.
Sure you might get folds a lot of the times but i still love shoving here cause its so wet and there are so many scare cards/draw out cards(T,J,5,6,c) that will either shut villain down or force us to fold,so why not shove here when we can resonably expect to get called?
Hands that are likly to call flop but fold scary turn 77,88,99,TT(and obvs. other overpairs but we have to discount them cause of the limped pot),78,89,9T,FD´s,Combo draws(A7c,AcT) are all calling here and JT is the only hand that has us beat(im discounting T6)
And that ignoring the fact that the shove will look majorly fishy and villains may show up with random crap.

Edit: didnt see villains stats....Now i love the shove even more since we can resonable add TPBK hands to there range

sindri_93 said:

And that ignoring the fact that the shove will look majorly fishy and villains may show up with random crap.

Edit: didnt see villains stats....Now i love the shove even more since we can resonable add TPBK hands to there range

Click to expand...

Like I said above, I like the concept and how the overbet looks very fish... but in a pot this small?

OzExorcist said:

Like I said above, I like the concept and how the overbet looks very fish... but in a pot this small?

Click to expand...

I know the pot is tiny but where up against two passive fish with the hand we have to think is good atm but there are 21(4J+4T+3Fives+3Sixes+all the clubs 13-2(on the board)-3(disconted JT5)-1 (our 6)=21...If my maths right) possible scare cards in the deck.
Obvs. villain doesnt have 21 outs but whats are plan here if for example the J of clubs hit?
Just seems to me this is the perfect spot to pull of a fancy play to avoid a tough decion(or losing value) later in the hand.
I certenly wouldnt do this any where near 100%(maybe 5%) of the time but when i think more and more about it just seems like a good spot.
If villains where diffrent(more aggro,likly to shove combos) and the board was rainbow i probably think diffrently but i still think we can get called and be in good shape regardless of the pot size.

I like it.

I think this has a pretty high EV actually when you combine the amount of players, the coordination of the board and account for how bad these players are...

It doesn't have to work everytime, but the few it does I think it might make you the most money over the long haul in this particular situation.


P.S. am I supposed to understand the difference between Whiskey, Villian and Ghost?

You nailed my thinking spot on, sindri. Bad, passive players, wetttttt flop, so wanted to try this out. I'll reveal results after a few more responses...

Oh, doesn't matter, Whiskey and Ghost are just the two villains, both fish.

I did it again.

poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

MP2: $23.85 (95.4 bb)
MP3: $32.45 (129.8 bb)
CO: $5.25 (21 bb)
BTN: $4.75 (19 bb)
Hero (SB): $25.45 (101.8 bb)
BB: $25 (100 bb)
UTG+1: $20.30 (81.2 bb)
MP1: $30.55 (122.2 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with 9 T
UTG+1 calls $0.25, 5 folds, Hero completes, BB checks

Flop: ($0.75) Q 8 J (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets $1.25, Hero raises to $25.20 and is all-in, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $18.80 and is all-in

Turn: ($40.85) 4 (2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($40.85) 4 (2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: $40.85 pot ($2 rake)
Hero showed 9 T (a straight, Eight to Queen) and won $38.85 ($18.55 net)
UTG+1 showed Q A (two pairs, Queens and Fours) and lost (-$20.30 net)

Not saying I'd use this move EVERY time I get in this situation, but I think with the right opponent and time, it can be very profitable. I considered just ch/raising at first, but considered the amount he likes his hand when he overbets the flop. Thoughts?

The Shrog said:

I did it again.

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

MP2: $23.85 (95.4 bb)
MP3: $32.45 (129.8 bb)
CO: $5.25 (21 bb)
BTN: $4.75 (19 bb)
Hero (SB): $25.45 (101.8 bb)
BB: $25 (100 bb)
UTG+1: $20.30 (81.2 bb)
MP1: $30.55 (122.2 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with 9

T

UTG+1 calls $0.25, 5 folds, Hero completes, BB checks

Flop: ($0.75) Q

8

J

(3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets $1.25, Hero raises to $25.20 and is all-in, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $18.80 and is all-in

Turn: ($40.85) 4

(2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($40.85) 4

(2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: $40.85 pot ($2 rake)
Hero showed 9

T

(a straight, Eight to Queen) and won $38.85 ($18.55 net)
UTG+1 showed Q

A

(two pairs, Queens and Fours) and lost (-$20.30 net)

Not saying I'd use this move EVERY time I get in this situation, but I think with the right opponent and time, it can be very profitable. I considered just ch/raising at first, but considered the amount he likes his hand when he overbets the flop. Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Like this to. Like the other one more since ther are more combos of hands that will call the first one imo, but yeah i like it.
I know results shouldnt matter but can u tell my how the first on whent?

In the original hand, the villain that led flop folded, other villain snap called with 98s