$25 NLHE Full Ring: Live game: QQ vs drunk villain with big stack

Home game. 8 handed. $40 buy in, blinds are $0.25 and $0.25.

Semi-drunk player raises from EP to $2 (a little more than an average raise of $1-$1.25 in this game). He recently hit a 2-outer getting all-in on the flop to stack another opponent, so is probably feeling pretty good about life. He has the entire table covered.

Player 2 calls from MP, Player 3 raises to $5 behind him. Don't remember their stack sizes unfortunately, but I don't remember them being very big or small.

I have QQ in LP (button or CO, not sure now). I raise to $15 with about $45 behind. Drunk player calls (woot) and Players 2 and 3 both fold.

Flop comes out K J x rainbow. Drunk player leads out for $20.

Now what? Drunk player is aggressive enough that he doesn't always have a K or a set here, but I feel as if I go all in for $25 more I'm never getting called by worse. Calling seems horrible, since that leaves me with 1/3 pot behind on the river. Folding would be pretty gross given the opponent. Should I 4-bet less preflop, or maybe just go all in? Other ideas?

ManicLombax said:

Home game. 8 handed. $40 buy in, blinds are $0.25 and $0.25.

Semi-drunk player raises from EP to $2 (a little more than an average raise of $1-$1.25 in this game). He recently hit a 2-outer getting all-in on the flop to stack another opponent, so is probably feeling pretty good about life. He has the entire table covered.

Player 2 calls from MP, Player 3 raises to $5 behind him. Don't remember their stack sizes unfortunately, but I don't remember them being very big or small.

I have QQ in LP (button or CO, not sure now). I raise to $15 with about $45 behind. Drunk player calls (woot) and Players 2 and 3 both fold.

Flop comes out K J x rainbow. Drunk player leads out for $20.

Now what? Drunk player is aggressive enough that he doesn't always have a K or a set here, but I feel as if I go all in for $25 more I'm never getting called by worse. Calling seems horrible, since that leaves me with 1/3 pot behind on the river. Folding would be pretty gross given the opponent. Should I 4-bet less preflop, or maybe just go all in? Other ideas?

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I think you answered your own question. It looks like a shove or fold spot. In my view, if there is a chance hes doing this with any jacks (AJ maybe) coupled with him having BS or whatever wierd "drunk guy" hands you are beating....then shoving is the clear play.

ManicLombax said:

Calling seems horrible, since that leaves me with 1/3 pot behind on the river.

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Oops, that would be the turn, obviously. That card that comes after the flop.

I wonder if you should've shoved because you certainly want to go against only one player when you're holding QQ in my opinion. If you thought you were pot committed from the 4 bet, and planned on getting it all in the middle anyways, then why not do it pre flop? If you were ready to get it in the middle, then a 4 bet is only designed at that point to get your opponent to call. And queens certainly aren't a lock, especially when if you get called in that scenario, more times than not you may as well prepare for a race. Now turns out in retrospect, it really wasn't a race pre flop, you were a clear favorite.

Newschool said:

I think you answered your own question. It looks like a shove or fold spot. In my view, if there is a chance hes doing this with any jacks (AJ maybe) coupled with him having BS or whatever wierd "drunk guy" hands you are beating....then shoving is the clear play.

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how?

imo its not a clear shove or fold spot.. you said he doesn't always have you beat here, but never calls with worse, so calling seems the optimal play.

stack sizes don't come into my consideration much here, since he's going to shove the turn on us anyway.

carddeaddonkey said:

I wonder if you should've shoved because you certainly want to go against only one player when you're holding QQ in my opinion. If you thought you were pot committed from the 4 bet, and planned on getting it all in the middle anyways, then why not do it pre flop? If you were ready to get it in the middle, then a 4 bet is only designed at that point to get your opponent to call. And queens certainly aren't a lock, especially when if you get called in that scenario, more times than not you may as well prepare for a race. Now turns out in retrospect, it really wasn't a race pre flop, you were a clear favorite.

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and shoving $40 over a $5 3bet only ever gets us called by better.. we're never really doing this light so people can start folding the hands we want calls from to our massive shove.

OMGITSOVER9K said:

how?

imo its not a clear shove or fold spot.. you said he doesn't always have you beat here, but never calls with worse, so calling seems the optimal play.

stack sizes don't come into my consideration much here, since he's going to shove the turn on us anyway.

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Well, I know that hero doesn't "feel" like he will get called by worse; but, I disagree. In my opinion there is a possibility of some Jx in villains range. Calling over all is seems fine as I know we are kind of in a WA/WB spot.

My concern is having only 1/3 pot left on river. This means villain probably won't make any mistakes and will give up his bluffs. He benefits seeing the river, and we have no upside there. So, that's why I'd consider getting the money in on turn.

Assume we call, are you planning on calling all rivers?

OMGITSOVER9K said:

imo its not a clear shove or fold spot.. you said he doesn't always have you beat here, but never calls with worse, so calling seems the optimal play.

stack sizes don't come into my consideration much here, since he's going to shove the turn on us anyway.

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Maybe. If he's got total air, he may not always jam the turn if I call, figuring I won't fold much for a 1/3 pot size bet if I already called the flop. That's why I was wondering if 4-betting smaller would have been better. If I 4-bet to say $11, then he leads out for $15, now I can call on the flop and stacks are closer to $40 on the turn, which seems better. But if I 4-bet small I could also end up with 2 or even 3 callers, which is clearly not what I want with QQ.

On the other hand I've already said this guy is semi-drunk and aggressive, so he may be getting it in on the turn almost no matter what.

OMGITSOVER9K said:

how?

imo its not a clear shove or fold spot.. you said he doesn't always have you beat here, but never calls with worse, so calling seems the optimal play.

stack sizes don't come into my consideration much here, since he's going to shove the turn on us anyway.

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+1.

Wtf as if you jam here. Gross spot. I call flop knowing I'm calling the turn shove/ shoving when he checks/shoving what ever little I have left over his turn bet (because he'll be so pot committed now that he will call stupid mid pair, OESD, gutter, etc, but I hate
My life doing it

against maniacs i prefer calling preflop or raising small for value.3way action is not horrible for qq and this is not the best combination to try your luck against them.since u can outplay them postflop anytime you like u can wait until they shove over the nuts.ive been there and lost a lot with insane opponents that have no chance post flop.i would shove preflop sometimes depending on how crazy those guys are but i prefer that u folded over there and wait for a better spot without making tha donk richer if he hit something.u said he had alot of chips so hes a lucky sob. general advice: dont wait for the nuts preflop.buy-in big and play many connectors and stack-off the donks!

Newschool said:

Well, I know that hero doesn't "feel" like he will get called by worse; but, I disagree. In my opinion there is a possibility of some Jx in villains range. Calling over all is seems fine as I know we are kind of in a WA/WB spot.

My concern is having only 1/3 pot left on river. This means villain probably won't make any mistakes and will give up his bluffs. He benefits seeing the river, and we have no upside there. So, that's why I'd consider getting the money in on turn.

Assume we call, are you planning on calling all rivers?

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say he had Jx, why would he call off a shove on the flop.. but then check fold when we flat call the flop IP?

calling puts more in the pot with us having less behind making it more likely he will call off with 2nd pair, gutshots, open enders etc.

lol, and villains drunk.. pretty sure he doesn't care too much about our stack size and if he plays drunk probably doesn't play enough poker to not make mistakes here anyway.

+ we're IP, so villain isn't seeing the river without calling off.. but do we not benefit a cheap showdown? (not to say i'm not shoving because I seriously doubt he ever checks a better hand OOP on the turn)

ManicLombax said:

Maybe. If he's got total air, he may not always jam the turn if I call, figuring I won't fold much for a 1/3 pot size bet if I already called the flop. That's why I was wondering if 4-betting smaller would have been better. If I 4-bet to say $11, then he leads out for $15, now I can call on the flop and stacks are closer to $40 on the turn, which seems better. But if I 4-bet small I could also end up with 2 or even 3 callers, which is clearly not what I want with QQ.

On the other hand I've already said this guy is semi-drunk and aggressive, so he may be getting it in on the turn almost no matter what.

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but he'd fold to your shove anyway if he had air -.-

and 4bets are supposed to be smaller vs regs in cash games so we can balance our bluffs against them, vs we can size them as big as we see fit since fish don't really care too much about our hand.

if the flop came J73 and he lead out for this same amount, wouldn't you be happy you made it that size?

sizing was fine, just call it off for 2 streets dude.

:goodnight

nidal55 said:

against maniacs i prefer calling preflop or raising small for value.3way action is not horrible for qq and this is not the best combination to try your luck against them.since u can outplay them postflop anytime you like u can wait until they shove over the nuts.ive been there and lost a lot with insane opponents that have no chance post flop.i would shove preflop sometimes depending on how crazy those guys are but i prefer that u folded over there and wait for a better spot without making tha donk richer if he hit something.u said he had alot of chips so hes a lucky sob. general advice: dont wait for the nuts preflop.buy-in big and play many connectors and stack-off the donks!

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don't listen to this.


...


except the buy in big bit.

OMGITSOVER9K said:

say he had Jx, why would he call off a shove on the flop.. but then check fold when we flat call the flop IP?

calling puts more in the pot with us having less behind making it more likely he will call off with 2nd pair, gutshots, open enders etc.

lol, and villains drunk.. pretty sure he doesn't care too much about our stack size and if he plays drunk probably doesn't play enough poker to not make mistakes here anyway.

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As far as I am concerned this is all correct. Calling seems like the best play; so, I don't want to argue strongly against it. One last thing I want to throw in here is that we can all agree that no matter what we do, its gonna be tuff for villain to make any more mistakes with his total air. Given that, I think we want to make the play that he views as weakest. My fear is that when we call, he knows we aren't going anywhere. If we shove maybe his weird unders plus gutter, or 33 will say "F it, ok I'm all in". If we call, maybe he sees a turn he doesn't like and he shuts down. Donks are known for folding incorrectly in big pots as well as calling incorrectly in them.

If I do call the flop, Id almost rather check the turn to induce a river shove rather than shove the turn when checked to. It gives him two chances to bluff off his stack, and he might be more likely to cry call the river after our apparent weakness of a turn check. What do you guys think about that?

I'm leaning towards flatting the flop being the best play here now. Since I'm never folding, the objective is to get all the money in the pot if he's got nothing or a weak hand, and flatting seems like the best way to do that.

Just to clarify, this guy isn't a total donk. He's a reasonably good player, but was playing probably more agressive/stubborn being at least semi-drunk. If that makes any difference in your analysis...

omgisover can say "dont listen to that" but maybe a fold can save u money in this tough spot.hes called 15 preflop and the only thing u have beat is aq or aj.dont pretend ur in love with ur hand cause u hate it over here.save ur 40 or so bucks and go on with life. home games are the easiest to break and u dont have to put ur self into this.if uv played them several times ull know im true.

yeah he can fold and easily win money in simpler spots if he's a decent player.. but isn't poker about playing as best you can in the marginal spots?

thats why he posted.. not here to argue even if it comes across that way sometimes.

he beats.. AT/AQ/AJ/QT/QJ/Q9/JT/J9/T9/random air

villain can be semi-bluffing a gutshot here or any other bollocks hand tbh.

loosing a buy in is not marginal unfortunately..ur right for the effort to perfect our game but loosing some ev and staying sane is good too.those "great" hands against "drunk lucky" opponents have cost me a lot.bad players catch good cards too.i agree that his range is polarized when he donkbets but its not worth it.just my personal experience.he will face a turn shove and then what? i dont think mr.beer is folding for 15 or 10 more on the turn. he can try asking him what he had(these players say the truth) or take a peek by himself and be ready next time.if he only had some equity left a shove would be great.as for ranges after a 15 preflop raise..if they contain j9 then they contain k9 too.

nidal55 said:

loosing a buy in is not marginal unfortunately..ur right for the effort to perfect our game but loosing some ev and staying sane is good too.those "great" hands against "drunk lucky" opponents have cost me a lot.bad players catch good cards too.i agree that his range is polarized when he donkbets but its not worth it.just my personal experience.he will face a turn shove and then what? i dont think mr.beer is folding for 15 or 10 more on the turn. he can try asking him what he had(these players say the truth) or take a peek by himself and be ready next time.if he only had some equity left a shove would be great.as for ranges after a 15 preflop raise..if they contain j9 then they contain k9 too.

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everything is wrong with this, i'll come back later to explain lol.

nidal55 said:

loosing a buy in is not marginal unfortunately..ur right for the effort to perfect our game but loosing some ev and staying sane is good too.those "great" hands against "drunk lucky" opponents have cost me a lot.bad players catch good cards too.i agree that his range is polarized when he donkbets but its not worth it.just my personal experience.he will face a turn shove and then what? i dont think mr.beer is folding for 15 or 10 more on the turn. he can try asking him what he had(these players say the truth) or take a peek by himself and be ready next time.if he only had some equity left a shove would be great.as for ranges after a 15 preflop raise..if they contain j9 then they contain k9 too.

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looking forward to OMGITSOVER9CAMPBELZ response