$25 NLHE Full Ring: KK OOP, 3 bet pot, Ace high flop

$25 NL HE Full Ring: KK OOP, 3 bet pot, Ace high flop

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 33/11/1

wa/wb? but OOP, I've 3bet, and there's a flush draw.

Not much in the way of reads; 9 hands, 33/11/1


poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 PL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

Hero (BB): 105.6 bb
UTG: 101.2 bb
UTG+1: 27.2 bb
MP1: 28.6 bb
MP2: 64.8 bb
MP3: 125.4 bb
CO: 105.4 bb
BTN: 22.2 bb
SB: 100 bb

Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with K K
UTG folds,
UTG+1 calls 1 bb,
MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 raises to 4.4 bb,
CO folds, BTN folds, SB folds, Hero raises to 14.4 bb,
UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls 10 bb

Flop: (30.2 bb) 6 5 A (2 players)
Hero

You are committed to a C bet if he checks, if he bets big you have to consider folding. I am not happy w the reraise preflop, you most likely would have still got heads up by just calling, a safer move.
Classic nightmare scenario. What happened?

You can either c-bet or check if he checks to you.

I read an article maybe on 2+2 or on here but basically when a flop like this comes up, you should check and then he'll most likely bet the turn to which you can call. If he bets the river you're mostly likely beat but if he checks and you bet he'll most likely fold

Makwa said:

I am not happy w the reraise preflop, you most likely would have still got heads up by just calling, a safer move.
Classic nightmare scenario. What happened?

Click to expand...

So your preferred play would be to flat, then here check/call as a typical wa/wb play?


I've been beating myself by underrepping hands lately, so my hope was just to take it down pre by 3 betting.

bgomez89 said:

You can either c-bet or check if he checks to you.

I read an article maybe on 2+2 or on here but basically when a flop like this comes up, you should check and then he'll most likely bet the turn to which you can call. If he bets the river you're mostly likely beat but if he checks and you bet he'll most likely fold

Click to expand...

Sounds like standard wa/wb play, except here I've repped a monster so the pot is big and there's a flush draw, both of which make it tougher.

Flush draws are generally going to be a very small portion of someones range in a 3bet pot. Preflop is pretty standard, although being oop I would be more inclined to make a larger 3bet to ~4x his raise or so.

Most of his range is probably going to be pp's(drawing to 2 outs), Ax(ahead of you), and some broadways below ax(drawing almost dead). Sometimes when you check here he's going to take a stab with his complete air and then just give up, as if you bet he folds it out. I wouldn't expect a player like this to double or triple barrel bluff me very often, so if he fires again you can be pretty sure you're in bad shape.

Richyl2008 said:

Flush draws are generally going to be a very small portion of someones range in a 3bet pot.

Click to expand...

Yeah, except those guys that think 78s is good to open raise, then call a 3 bet from me from the blinds. I think I still haven't gotten over that one that happened last month.

But something that I missed here; the Ace of the flush is out there, making any kind of flush draw holding even less likely. That's one of those things that I know, but tend to forget. That's why it's good to talk about these things

I'm still not sure about check/calling the flop given the size of the pot and the hand that I've repped. I chose to 3 bet pre because I wanted to take it down pre, and I'd still rather take in now that have tougher decisions. And yeah, 3 betting a touch bigger OOP might have been preferable.


As for what happened, I think only an Ace is calling so I bet out and he folded.

Makwa said:

You are committed to a C bet if he checks, if he bets big you have to consider folding.

Click to expand...

Why?

Posts with "do this" instructions and no reasoning are not only not helpful, but can be destructive.

If we cbet, he's only calling with Ax and the very rare flush draw, and we fold out all the worse hands that for the most part have a miniscule amount of equity against us. This is classic wa/wb and you know it, NL.

It seems a little tougher in a 3bet pot, but really it's easier, especially against someone who's relatively passive. In 3bet pots players play much more straight forward, and although we can induce probably one bet from him should we check, if he continues to bet he's almost always got it, and we fold. Simple.

Makwa said:

I am not happy w the reraise preflop, you most likely would have still got heads up by just calling, a safer move.
Classic nightmare scenario. What happened?

Click to expand...

I'm genuinely surprised you're 1500 posts deep on these forums and are advocating flatting with KK to play it 'safe'. We have a huge equity advantage, want to build the pot, and want to protect our hand, so we 4bet almost ALWAYS.

NineLions said:

But something that I missed here; the Ace of the flush is out there, making any kind of flush draw holding even less likely. That's one of those things that I know, but tend to forget. That's why it's good to talk about these things

Click to expand...

Very true and another reason this is closer to a wa/wb situation since he will have hands with equity against us less often than normal.

NineLions said:

I'm still not sure about check/calling the flop given the size of the pot and the hand that I've repped.

Click to expand...

What do you mean by this? How do you think your range matters to a seemingly bad 25nl unknown if he's holding 22? QQ? KQ? A9?

NineLions said:

I chose to 3 bet pre because I wanted to take it down pre, and I'd still rather take in now that have tougher decisions. And yeah, 3 betting a touch bigger OOP might have been preferable.

Click to expand...

You should be 3betting pf for value, protection and isolation. I do like 3betting a little more here too, probably 16bb.

NineLions said:

As for what happened, I think only an Ace is calling so I bet out and he folded.

Click to expand...

You have pretty good thought process up to here, and I hope this last line was kind of a brain fart. If he's only calling with an ace, then there's NO value in betting. Again, wa/wb.

I think a 3bet for protecting your hand is fine here!

Richyl2008 said:

Flush draws are generally going to be a very small portion of someones range in a 3bet pot. Preflop is pretty standard, although being oop I would be more inclined to make a larger 3bet to ~4x his raise or so.

Most of his range is probably going to be pp's(drawing to 2 outs), Ax(ahead of you), and some broadways below ax(drawing almost dead). Sometimes when you check here he's going to take a stab with his complete air and then just give up, as if you bet he folds it out. I wouldn't expect a player like this to double or triple barrel bluff me very often, so if he fires again you can be pretty sure you're in bad shape.

Click to expand...

Agree to some of this. I would make the 3bet larger because we are OOP as well. We are definitely ahead of some of his range (PPs) but wb any Ax, so the classic wa/wb situation. As the master of wa/wb ChuckTs says, checking here is our best option, betting will only get a call from an A and fold away worse hands.

I don't think he will take a stab on the flop because he's a 33/11/1, the 1 being the key factor in the classic LP.

ChuckTs said:

It seems a little tougher in a 3bet pot, but really it's easier, especially against someone who's relatively passive. In 3bet pots players play much more straight forward, and although we can induce probably one bet from him should we check, if he continues to bet he's almost always got it, and we fold. Simple.


You have pretty good thought process up to here, and I hope this last line was kind of a brain fart. If he's only calling with an ace, then there's NO value in betting. Again, wa/wb.

Click to expand...

K', this is what I need to work on then. I don't get a lot of post flop 3-bet play at 25nl FR, so I guess I'm thinking that because the pot size is bigger, I need to decide things earlier before I get pot committed, but that's probably some panic due to lack of play experience. That lack of experience combined with the one time getting burned by 78s against my overpair (you know, the same kind of results oriented thinking as the beginner saying 'AK lost 6 times in a row') probably made me concerned about the FD more than I need, especially as I didn't take into consideration that the Ace of the suit was there.

Thanks Chuck, 'cause it wasn't just a brain fart.