$25 NLHE Full Ring: KK facing min raise

$25 NL HE Full Ring: KK facing min raise

I had only been at the table for 17 hands but villain had already proven himself to be pretty loose. He had played about half of the hands dealt.

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Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2009-12-30 15:12:57
Table 'Maidstone' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: VILLAIN ($66.10)
Seat 2: cw ($18.82)
Seat 3: Sh ($18.82)
Seat 4: jack ($49.05)
Seat 5: adl ($10.39)
Seat 6: son ($24.80)
Seat 7: Ken ($20.02)
Seat 8: djf ($21.10)
Seat 9: HERO ($24.30)
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NEW HAND
jack: posts the small blind $0.10
adl: posts the big blind $0.25
--- DEALING POCKETS
HERO is dealt [Kd,Kh]
son: folds
Ken: folds
djf: calls $0.25
HERO: raises $0.85 to $1.10
VILLAIN: calls $1.10
cw: calls $1.10
Shaw: folds
jack: folds
adl: calls $0.85
djf: folds
--- DEALING FLOP [2c,7h,Qh]
adl: bets $1.50
HERO: raises $3.00 to $4.50
VILLAIN: raises $3.00 to $7.50
cw: folds
adl: folds
HERO: ???

I have about $18.70 left and the pot is $18.25.

Also, how would we proceed if "adl" called?

With 2 hearts on board and a villain playing half of his hands, I'm happy to just get it in here. If he calls I expect to be good a lot of the time, he would probably play TP type hands like this.

marginal said:

With 2 hearts on board and a villain playing half of his hands, I'm happy to just get it in here. If he calls I expect to be good a lot of the time, he would probably play TP type hands like this.

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this.

I just jam AI, villian folds bluffs and calls TP and FD hands 99% of the time. If villian wakes up with a set its just varience, shoving this is definately correct IMO

My first thought was "shove".

But I'm curious... with the action on the flop being: pot bet, standard raise (me), and 3bet min. (villain) then what can we put villain on?

Isn't the min 3bet enticing others to build the pot? Or am I reading too much into it?

I read the action on the flop:

adl- I like this flop.
HERO- I like it too, let's get more money in.
VILLAIN- Yeah, I like it too. Let's get even more money in and not lose anybody.

Why?

I'm super-tight and could almost find a fold here if it wasn't sooooo weak. Could a case be made for calling and re-evaluating the turn?

i think your reading into this to much. villians weird bet size is almost always because he is a donk that doesnt know how bet size very well. A good player would raise atleast 3 times your bet or just shove and call if he wanted to keep more players around.

Viliian is bad. Get it in

Munchrs said:

i think your reading into this to much. villians weird bet size is almost always because he is a donk that doesnt know how bet size very well. A good player would raise atleast 3 times your bet or just shove and call if he wanted to keep more players around.

Viliian is bad. Get it in

Click to expand...

The raise size looks enticing - but players using this raise size, I think, usually aren't looking to keep weaker hands in, they're usually just not good players (2.5x and 3x raises aren't losing weaker hands much more frequently than minraising, and strong players know this), I agree w Munchrs that you're reading too much into it.

Love the "Villain is bad. Get it in" statement, it's literally my thought process here, also agree w Marginal that this is draws/TP enough of the time to make it worthwhile even though he'll have a set here some of the time.

I dislike calling and re-evaluating turn oop, there's not a lot more info we can get on the turn oop, and if we're up against TP/fd hands we'll have problems getting more value on the turn - and we're not folding to a blank turn, so we're behind a set anyway.

I am with the get it in crowd with one caveat. Even after 19 hands, if he's been playing a lot of them you should have some kind of agg stats on him. Some of the people who take every flop are just lurking for sneaky 2 pair spots to get it in and calling too much/folding the rest of the time. So if agg is <1 maybe I can see a fold in here. But even then, this spot is so pretty I'm probably still sticking it in and facepalming when q7s shows up.

Thanks for the help guys! Two things:

1) I think I was reading too much into the min. raise.
B) I think I was overlooking how bad villain was (50% flops/bad bet sizing).
3) I think shoving is the play.

Spoiler: HERO shoves and gets called by VILLAIN w/ Q2 whose two pair holds up.:argh:

Double-A said:

Thanks for the help guys! Two things:

1) I think I was reading too much into the min. raise.
B) I think I was overlooking how bad villain was (50% flops/bad bet sizing).
3) I think shoving is the play.

Spoiler: HERO shoves and gets called by VILLAIN w/ Q2 whose two pair holds up.:argh:

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Wow, buddy list the guy. Seriously.

slycbnew said:

The raise size looks enticing - but players using this raise size, I think, usually aren't looking to keep weaker hands in, they're usually just not good players (2.5x and 3x raises aren't losing weaker hands much more frequently than minraising, and strong players know this), I agree w Munchrs that you're reading too much into it.

Love the "Villain is bad. Get it in" statement, it's literally my thought process here, also agree w Marginal that this is draws/TP enough of the time to make it worthwhile even though he'll have a set here some of the time.

I dislike calling and re-evaluating turn oop, there's not a lot more info we can get on the turn oop, and if we're up against TP/fd hands we'll have problems getting more value on the turn - and we're not folding to a blank turn, so we're behind a set anyway.

Click to expand...

Entirely agree with this statement for the simple reason that I ran into a pretty much identical situation a while back.

Your running into sets here a small proportion of the time (AA also) and even though villain is ultra loose, there are some very unlikely two pair combos on the board.

It probably is more likely a tptk situation

edit: just saw he hit his two pair...wow this guy probably just deposited his way into 10-25 rather than play his way there....wow!!

I agree with marginal here jam AI, now that I've seen the outcome I even feel stronger about the shove, the villian is a fool who will pay you off more often than not.

slycbnew said:

Wow, buddy list the guy. Seriously.

Click to expand...

And definitely buddy list him.

I'd fold giving villain 2 pair or a set.

One thing about players who see a boatload of flops or have insane VPIPs... they generally are call stations. I'd be very surprised to see XhXh or QxXx put a 3 bet in...they'd more likely just call. Once they 3 bet I think this is Q7 Q2 72 22 77 very often

I play at 10NL HE most of the time, but if someone could promise me a player like this villian at every table I would move up today! bankroll or no bankroll!

Zybomb said:

I'd fold giving villain 2 pair or a set.

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Lol, I couldn't fold.

I couldn't put VILLAIN on anything but 77 or QQ. To me his min. 3bet into three players, two of which have shown increasing aggression, says "I want more money in this pot, I don't want to lose anybody, and I want to give the players who have shown aggression an opportunity to 4bet/shove." For some reason, that I'm not good enough to quantify, I couldn't see playing a draw (in this pot) that way.

From his perspective, why couldn't I have QQ, AA, KK, AKh, AJh, ATh, 77, or AhQx? That's a bunch of hands that he, not only isn't afraid of, but wants me to have. Why? I think it's because he either has them or has most of them beat.

AA, KK, and AK or unlikely for obvious reasons. QQ 3bets pre-flop sometimes so maybe unlikely. AJ & AT of hearts are possibilities but 3bet min. on the flop is a weird way to play them. I'm left with 77 and maybe QQ.

I'm confused about whether, I made a good read and didn't play very well or I'm weak/tight but made the right play.

Yea tough luck here. ADL should either shove or fold himself so I think if he calls your KK will probably fall in a 3 way pot by the river.