$25 NLHE Full Ring: JJ from the CO in a multiway pot

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wherbie718

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Hey everyone! I have a question about everyone's favorite hand, pocket J's. Below is the hand replayed.

Merge - $0.25 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (CO): $23.40
BTN: $36.42 (VPIP: 17.50, PFR: 2.50, 3Bet Preflop: 1.82, hands: 161)
SB: $26.02 (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
BB: $24.65 (VPIP: 12.00, PFR: 4.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
UTG: $33.85 (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
UTG+1: $25.00 (VPIP: 18.70, PFR: 16.26, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 124)
MP: $20.90 (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 6)

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has J:spade: J:heart:

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.90, BTN calls $0.90, fold, BB calls $0.65

Flop: ($2.80, 3 players) 3:diamond: 5:diamond: 4:diamond:
BB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($2.80, 3 players) 4:spade:
BB bets $1.40, Hero calls $1.40, BTN calls $1.40

River: ($7.00, 3 players) 8:spade:
BB bets $5.25, Hero calls $5.25, fold

I wondering if I played this too passively in a multi-way pot. I didn't have a read on any of the players in the hand so I had them credit for middle pocket pairs and broadway cards (possibly suited connected as low as JT).

I figured I stand a good chance to be ahead or WAY behind and crushed, but my decision to call and evaluate on the river hinged on the types of hands I felt good bet that turn from the blinds, which include one pair flush draws, as well as A-high flush draws. There aren't a ton of 4 and 5s in the ranges of the players involved, expected pocket 4s and 5s.

When the boards pairs on the turn, I figure I may still be ahead if I already am, since most of the hands in these players hands haven't improved beyond mine.

The river blanks so I feel comfortable calling this bet, even though I have to fold to a raise from the button. Based on the action in the hand, I put the bb on a smaller pocket pair here, like 66+. I doubt he bets here with a naked A, as there aren't many aces in his range that hit this board, even if he has the Ad. I didn't feel a raise on the river was profitable as worst hands fold.

Did I way this well here? Where could I possibly have played this better. (I'll post the results separately later.)
 
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dd_decker

dd_decker

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Yes, you played it too passively. You should have bet the flop, probably bet the pot to discourage straight and flush draws.... If you get a call you have to re-evaluate on the turn. Since the turn card did not help the flush or straight draws, you should now fire another bullet. If there is a call, you might check the river or make a blocking bet and decide what to do in the event of a bet or raise. Just my opinion....
 
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Henreiman

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JJ is strong enough to GII on the flop if you do get re-raised so this is a clear flop bet, especially into 2 opponents. Also I don't know why you made it 90 cents pre, 3x is more than enough...in LP, 2.5x is fine as well
 
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wherbie718

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JJ is strong enough to GII on the flop if you do get re-raised so this is a clear flop bet, especially into 2 opponents. Also I don't know why you made it 90 cents pre, 3x is more than enough...in LP, 2.5x is fine as well

Yes, you played it too passively. You should have bet the flop, probably bet the pot to discourage straight and flush draws.... If you get a call you have to re-evaluate on the turn. Since the turn card did not help the flush or straight draws, you should now fire another bullet. If there is a call, you might check the river or make a blocking bet and decide what to do in the event of a bet or raise. Just my opinion....

Thanks for the advice here!
 
Eatscake

Eatscake

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Agree with what they both said. Although flop I think a 2/3 bet is more than enough. Potting will discourage hands like 7s - 9s from calling as a pot sized bet on that board implies massive strength. By making it 2/3 you get called by a lot of worse hands and its pretty easy to get away if you get called, the turn is a diamond and your opponents play it aggressively. As played though I think I like turn and river.
 
Jblocher1

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We don't want to fold out draws..... We want Max value from them
 
dresturn2

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well you did play it too passively, why give up the lead on the flop, are you afraid to fold if you get 3bet? I don't agree with betting to discourage draws, you don't make money when people fold hands that you beat. I agree with betting for value on flop cause you will probably have the best hand here and draws will most likely flat and follow. Players will usually tell you where they are because they are not as good. If you miss streets of value just cause you are afraid of people hitting their draws then you are costing yourself money.
 
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wherbie718

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well you did play it too passively, why give up the lead on the flop, are you afraid to fold if you get 3bet? I don't agree with betting to discourage draws, you don't make money when people fold hands that you beat. I agree with betting for value on flop cause you will probably have the best hand here and draws will most likely flat and follow. Players will usually tell you where they are because they are not as good. If you miss streets of value just cause you are afraid of people hitting their draws then you are costing yourself money.

We don't want to fold out draws..... We want Max value from them

Agree with what they both said. Although flop I think a 2/3 bet is more than enough. Potting will discourage hands like 7s - 9s from calling as a pot sized bet on that board implies massive strength. By making it 2/3 you get called by a lot of worse hands and its pretty easy to get away if you get called, the turn is a diamond and your opponents play it aggressively. As played though I think I like turn and river.

Thanks for the input here -- I definitely didn't want to get raised off the hand on the flop, but in hindsight it's better to bet for value here since I'm still likely ahead. Plus if I'm behind, I'll probably find out right away.

By the way, here is how the hand ended.

BB shows 8:heart: 8:diamond: (Full House, Eights full of Fours) (Pre 19%, Flop 44%, Turn 23%)
Hero shows J:spade: J:heart: (Two Pair, Jacks and Fours) (Pre 81%, Flop 56%, Turn 77%)
BB wins $16.53
 
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Falcon1803

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Yes, you played it too passively. You should have bet the flop, probably bet the pot to discourage straight and flush draws.... If you get a call you have to re-evaluate on the turn. Since the turn card did not help the flush or straight draws, you should now fire another bullet. If there is a call, you might check the river or make a blocking bet and decide what to do in the event of a bet or raise. Just my opinion....
What blocking bet if we are IP against BB?
 
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ScottishMatt

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JJ is strong enough to GII on the flop if you do get re-raised so this is a clear flop bet, especially into 2 opponents. Also I don't know why you made it 90 cents pre, 3x is more than enough...in LP, 2.5x is fine as well

I'm rarely ever GII here vs a X/R with JJ.

I'd be betting the flop but checking is OK as well. Turn call is fine, but fold the river. No way is he bluffing with two callers OTT and given the second caller his river valuebetting range becomes even narrower so we can expect plenty of his SDV hands to just check it. You are crushed here a lot IMO. Especially if we look at the difference in sizing between each street.
 
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