$25 NLHE Full Ring: JJ BB stuck in the middle maybe

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem (9 players)
SB: $24.97 I have no hands on them.
BB Hero: $25
UTG: $29.33
UTG+1: $35.59
MP: $25.45
MP+1:$43.32 VPIP 21% PFR 10% AGG 3.0 HANDS
MP+2: $7.79
CO: $25
BTN: $25.85

Pre-flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB and dealt
3 folds, MP+1 raises to $0.75, 3 folds, SB raises to $2.50 Hero Hmm, I have no hands on SB because I had just taken my seat a couple hands ago. Are you calling here with pos on SB, but someone else left to act or what is your plan and what would be your plan if you did decide to call??

I fold by default.

If i think the original raiser is likely to call the 3bet i will call to set mine.

If i called i would like to hit a set. If not i might call a flop bet based on board texture but im not going to stack off here with an overpair ever.

I 4b to $7.00. It's because we don't have any stats or hands on him yet that I especially want to 4b this to see how he reacts. He could be 3 betting so wide here than it's a crime not to 4b and see how he reacts. If MP+1 comes over the top we can safely get away and then either fold/ship/play the flop based on SB.

I would wait to 4b an unknown until a better spot where late position opened and he 3b. This is still vs an early position person with a tight range (10%pfr) and he is in the sb, so i think the odds of him bluffing are much less here.

Theres also nothing to give me the read that he is a maniac or has a bluffing range at all. I think by default we should give unknowns the benefit of the doubt til proven otherwise.

on the contrary 10% is a little above average and he can easily be doing this with 99, 1010, AJ AQ AK or even worse possibly.

really? a 4bet fold seems a bit of a waste here.

people on here might disagree but JJ is a medium strength hand.. and by 4 betting your way over selling it by turning it into a bluff, because we're deffo not doing it for value since we're folding to the 5 bet jam..

you could flat to set mine but it depends on how strong you think the both of them are.. the fact is your not closing the action so you could end up calling then having to fold to the 4 bet which isn't the best spot.

might be a bit nitty but with no reads I reckon its a fold, no point playing a bloated pot OOP when your going to hate the flop a lot of the time.

To clarify I'm 4b/calling a 5b shove here with JJ against an unknown at this limit. People will get it in so light at 25nl and I'm never giving up JJ+ unless it's against a super nit or someone I know.

Yea , I think 4bet might get you in big trouble here because , If the unknown is a tight player and has AKS or better he might jam over the top of us and also if he is a fish he could have anything and still jam over the top of us .We still have to fold then. And we still don't know what the other guys in MP#! would do.

dwbrown7680 said:

To clarify I'm 4b/calling a 5b shove here with JJ against an unknown at this limit. People will get it in so light at 25nl and I'm never giving up JJ+ unless it's against a super nit or someone I know.

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so what do you expect him to show up with in a 5 bet pot? 99?

how wide do you think people's 5 bet ranges are lol..

I guess you could stack off here.. but your either flipping or crushed, and thats a pretty shit spot to be in tbh..

guess we disagree.

There's 3 ways to play jacks. All 3 ways are wrong.


Best bet is either don't play them heavy, or make them look like aces preflop IMHO.

Campbell92 said:

so what do you expect him to show up with in a 5 bet pot? 99?

how wide do you think people's 5 bet ranges are lol..

I guess you could stack off here.. but your either flipping or crushed, and thats a pretty shit spot to be in tbh..

guess we disagree.

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I'm 4 betting here because then we're closing the action. Unless MP+1 and SB both have monster hands we close and can re-eval once it's back to us. I specifically said $7.00 because that gives us the info we want without comitting too much of our stack. If MP+1 5b shoves and SB calls we obv fold but more than likely MP+1 is now folding and it comes back to SB who can have a wide range here.

At 25 nl people like to 3b any decent Ace out of the blinds (A10s+, AQo+ and also stuff like 88+) If he 5b shoves we can fold if we want to and now have a better read on how he plays or we can call and go from there. I personally have no problem getting it in here as there are only 3 hands you're ever worried about with about 13-15 more ppl will ship over the top at this limit.

skltlf said:

There's 3 ways to play jacks. All 3 ways are wrong.


Best bet is either don't play them heavy, or make them look like aces preflop IMHO.

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Yeah, no! JJ is a top 5 winning hand.

As for the OP. I flat and play the pot 90% of the time HU and IP after MP1 folds.

Filter your db with these

Hole cards = JJ
Stack size bigger than 80bb
all in preflop = true

How many of you are winning here? Keep in mind this is for all cases including bvb and late vs blinds where ranges can be wider.

I flat and fold to a MP 4bet, we can play IP and see how he plays his hand. People play bad in 3bet pots and usually quite face up.

I fold. It's not close.

MP vs SB 3bet bluffing is going to be pretty rare especially vs 10% PFR opens.
I fold most the time even if we had high 3bet stats on the SB.

6-max vs. SB 3-bettor: 4-bet/get it in pre with JJ and be ahead
FR vs. SB 3-bettor: fold

I always seem to miss the fact this is FR.....bleh. I'm pretty much with what baudib said above me.

6max it's a fold as well.

We have no reads on villain to suggest he 3bets light.
We have no reads on villain to suggest he 3bets light vs UTG openers
We have no reads on villain to suggest he 3bets light vs UTG openers with a 10% PFR
We have no reads on villain to suggest he 3bets light vs UTG openers with a 10% PFR then 5bets light vs a cold 4bet

The assumptions being made of an unknown itt are a bit wild.

This isn't a fold in 6m.

Last time I played 25 NL 6-max (black friday), the 3-bet ranges from SB were huge and the opener isn't UTG. Barring someone with really nitty stats, I'd never fold JJ pre vs. someone 3-betting BTN or later.

baudib1 said:

Last time I played 25 NL 6-max (black friday), the 3-bet ranges from SB were huge and the opener isn't UTG. Barring someone with really nitty stats, I'd never fold JJ pre vs. someone 3-betting BTN or later.

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This +1000. I'm 4 betting so we now close the action and seeing how the other two react. You can 4b to a safe number and still get away if you really, really, wanted to but JJ should pretty much be 4b here with a SB 3b over a LP raise.

dooydoo said:

Filter your db with these

Hole cards = JJ
Stack size bigger than 80bb
all in preflop = true

How many of you are winning here? Keep in mind this is for all cases including bvb and late vs blinds where ranges can be wider.

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I'm winning at ~42bb/100
at 6max only

JOEBOB69 said:

I'm winning at ~42bb/100
at 6max only

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Lol I'm 132 bb/100 with those filters, albeit a small sample as I play way more Omaha than hold'em.

*edit* 6m only as well.

So do you think the assumptions I stated previously are perfectly reasonable or do you contest their relevance?

baudib1 said:

the opener isn't UTG.

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If we were playing 6max he would be.

Deco said:

So do you think the assumptions I stated previously are perfectly reasonable or do you contest their relevance?



If we were playing 6max he would be.

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You're right about his position, I read it wrong.

Translating directly to 6m is pretty difficult imo; for one thing, finding people who only raise 10% in 6m is rare.

But yeah, at this level in 6m games, everyone wants to be isildur1 or durrrr and they have read some articles (possibly outdated) on 3-betting light and are misapplying them constantly. Default 3-betting ranges for unknowns at 25NL 6M are way too wide.