$25 NLHE Full Ring: Flop TPTK... sandwitched b/w PFR and CO - better line?

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chattin35

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$25 NL HE Full Ring: Flop TPTK... sandwitched b/w PFR and CO - better line?

full tilt poker $25.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - Rush

No reads on villian. It's during the 6:00est happy hour so the game is pretty wild, fwiw.

MP2: $18.74
CO: $29.17
BTN: $27.39
SB: $26.33
BB: $11.84
UTG: $47.45
UTG+1: $31.12
UTG+2: $28.11
Hero (MP1): $23.58

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is MP1 with A :club: K :diamond:

2 folds, UTG+2 raises to $1, Hero calls $1, 1 fold, CO calls $1, 3 folds

Flop: ($3.35) J :diamond: K :spade: 5 :club: (3 players)

UTG+2 bets $1.50, Hero raises to $4.32, CO folds, UTG+2 raises to $16.31, Hero raises to $22.58, UTG+2 calls $6.27

I really don't like the way I played this hand - especially stuck between the raiser and button. The raise was based mostly on wanting the guy in the CO to fold so I didn't have to deal with him in the rest of the hand if EP calls. It just felt spewy overall - wondering if there is a better way to play this spot.

At what point do you make a commitment decision with TPTK on that board with those stack sizes, if ever? Would you rather 3bet to get a smaller SPR to make a flop commitment decision easier?

If you fold to the re-raise, why take the raise/fold line? Would you flat instead? What would the plan on the turn/riv be if you flat? Basically, what is a better line here?

Thanks. Curious to see your thoughts.

BTW, the results are kind of surprising/funny.
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

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Would you rather 3bet to get a smaller SPR to make a flop commitment decision easier?

Yeah, TPTK in a 3bet pot 100bb's deep is a no brainer stack-off - this is a tricky spot. It's not just the SPR, Villain's range narrows when he flats to the 3bet oop.
 
cucumber_pandas

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Flatting is fine here pre unless you know UTG+2 is a fish and will call with worse. I flat flop here all day instead of raising. The board is really dry so we don't really need to worry about pricing CO in with a draw. By raising this flop, we force CO and UTG+2 to fold worse hands. Once you raise the flop you cant fold though.
 
KardKlub

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I think you have to 3 bet pre- if your not doing it with AK, what is your value range in doing so?
 
S93

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I think you have to 3 bet pre- if your not doing it with AK, what is your value range in doing so?
Its 25nl rush-aka nit fest-We have no need to balance our value range and we dont fair to good against a EP 4bet range but we do how ever dominate alot of his range when we flat.

I dont like the flop raise though, there are very few draws and villain never alot of outs when where ahead but the raise alows them to fold alot of hands we beat and jam a range that crushes us.
 
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chattin35

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Raising AK for value is an interesting point and something that I've noticed seems to be generally accepted around the internet. I'd argue that it's more of a bluff. Most of what you beat/dominate folds to a three bet. Therefore, you want to keep them in the hand especially when you have position and can control the pot.

Hands that flat a 3bet oop are usually 10's-QQ's, AK, and sometimes pocket pairs, rarely AQ. Most of that range you're behind. Moreover, you only flop TPTK 30% of the time, at which point you're likely a 70/30 dog on the flop if you miss (which you will 70% of the time).

Basically, I think your potential to make more money is greater by flatting with AK and playing post flop than in a 3bet pot. If you want to balance your 3betting range you can find much better cards (like 86s) than AK.

The downside is that you can have someone call behind you which sucks. So, like everything in poker, it's really villian/table dependant. I do think that was my mistake in the hand though having no reads on the table and being in middle position myself.
 
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chattin35

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I dont like the flop raise though, there are very few draws and villain never alot of outs when where ahead but the raise alows them to fold alot of hands we beat and jam a range that crushes us.

Thanks for the input. So in general, you'd be more inclined raise/call a shove with TPTK to charge the draws on a draw heavy board opposed to the dry flop in that hand?
 
S93

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Thanks for the input. So in general, you'd be more inclined raise/call a shove with TPTK to charge the draws on a draw heavy board opposed to the dry flop in that hand?
Its obvs villain and board depended, like every thing in poker.
But honestly what u expect to call that u beat when u raise this flop?
KQ,KT,QQ,QT,AJ,QJ and a few random hands?
His range to cbet this flop is gonna be wide, his range for calling the raise is gonna be narrow(obvs all of this is asuming villain isnt a maniac but since this is readless rush we need to make the asumption that villain is your typical 25nl player).
Because of so few draws we dont need to worry about pricing in the CO since he is never gonna have alot of outs.
I just prefer flatting and playing against a wide range on the turn.
I just dont see why we have to stack of here.
 
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