$25 NLHE Full Ring: facing wtf river shove

No Brainer

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Total posts
1,853
Chips
0
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 23/19/3.5

Villain is fairly LAGy, I have seen him get stacks in with TPTK on the flop. Stats are over just 75 hands.

I bet the river for value as after checking through he has basically no better hands in his range but may be calling with 77-JJ. The shove took me by surprise, was like wtf??

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
SB ($41.72)
BB ($21.75)
UTG ($35.01)
UTG+1 ($16.25)
UTG+2 ($27.45)
Hero ($25)
BTN ($8.38)

Dealt to Hero Q Q

fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, UTG+2 raises to $1, Hero raises to $3, fold, SB calls $2.90, fold, fold, fold

FLOP ($7.50) 2 6 K

SB checks, Hero checks

TURN ($7.50) 2 6 K K

SB checks, Hero checks

RIVER ($7.50) 2 6 K K 6

SB checks, Hero bets $5.25, SB raises to $38.72 (AI), Hero has $16 left...
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
save your $16

I think he has bluffs often however, he's not a total maniac. I realize 23/19 is pretty LAG for FR. However, he shouldn't be calling very light from the SB here. Sure sign that a micro-LAG has a monster is when he checks 3 streets.

I'd expect to see AK/KK/66 a lot, although you'll win once in a while against A-high/JJ random spazz.
 
bgomez89

bgomez89

Resident Thugmaster
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Total posts
3,127
Chips
0
Why no cbet or at least turn bet
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
of course calling is totally fine too
 
No Brainer

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Total posts
1,853
Chips
0
Why no cbet or at least turn bet

No c bet as he has a lot of Ks in his range + some pot control being in position. I thought about a turn bet but is he really calling with much worse? I guess he could call with 99-JJ but are we ever calling a river bet after that? I was happy with getting one street of value in a 3 bet pot with 2nd pair.
 
ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Total posts
1,642
Chips
0
He could be doing this thinking you're betting a missed flush on the river after taking 2 free cards. I think calling or folding is fine, could easily have 77-JJ or AJ/AQ. I don't expect to see quads here
 
bgomez89

bgomez89

Resident Thugmaster
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Total posts
3,127
Chips
0
He calls with a lot on the turn because what are you really representing?
 
No Brainer

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Total posts
1,853
Chips
0
He calls with a lot on the turn because what are you really representing?

good point, I would have c bet with AA or AK so we may get a lot of underpairs calling a turn bet. So when he calls the turn are you shoving river or checking it back?
 
bgomez89

bgomez89

Resident Thugmaster
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Total posts
3,127
Chips
0
(btw you're right for checking flop, not sure why i was thinking to cbet). It depends, if we bet about 5 on the turn and he calls that makes the pot like 18, and we'd have about 17 left so if you think that he's capable of calling with 88-JJ or even A high, then you should probably shove. If you think he doesnt call with those then i see no point in shoving river
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
betting turn is the way to go, check river.
 
P

papatango123

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Total posts
154
Chips
0
i would bet the flop find out where you are straight away.
fold the river
 
tpb221

tpb221

Chasing Gutshots
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Total posts
2,095
Awards
1
Chips
0
If you stats are tight, I think a c-bet on flop is best. It helps to define our hand and his(info) that we don't get in these situtions. Check river? Fold as played.
 
M

MBC

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Total posts
6
Chips
0
I think we really need to try and define his preflop flatting range because it is extremely narrow. I am instantly ruling out KK+ and AK because it does not make sense to flat these hands out of position and try to play a 3way pot. I would only revise this if I had seen the LAG flat AK OOP before because that is noteworthy to me. To me his range is something like 66-JJ, AQ and AJs. I don't think he ever has KQ here.

With that out of the way: I am betting the flop for fat value. I am betting the turn for fat value. I am betting the river for fat value. If he spews/shoves, I am snap calling because he is representing a far too narrow range (especially on the turn).

As played the river bet looks horribly like a steal on your part. In my opinion he fell into the trap of thinking you are weak or stealing with A high and you should lol call instantly.
 
bgomez89

bgomez89

Resident Thugmaster
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Total posts
3,127
Chips
0
Isn't it kind of like a wa/wb scenario on the flop mbc?
 
M

MBC

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Total posts
6
Chips
0
wa/wb is not a term I am familiar with so I am only armed with 10 minutes worth of Google knowledge:-

https://www.cardschat.com/f49/wa-wb-concept-76525/

My gut instinct is that I don't completely agree with the concept as it can be so widely applied if you go out of your way to look for it. And if you are over applying, you are leaving a lot of value on the table. I really don't think it applies here because we have some real information to form a range for the villain.

As I previously mentioned, I don't think there are many, if any, Kx in the villain's range. With this assumption, I am playing as though the flop came J high. I am only being beaten by sets (and I am always paying off a true LAG set) or AK with a note for the future.

The turn card is one of the best cards in the deck for us because the villain is likely to go crazy, which is what I honestly think happened when we finally got to the river.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
WA/WB is so 2009. These days we turn all of our showdown value hands into bluffs hoping they'll fold AA/6x here and call with underpairs cuz villains have LOLamounts of air.
 
Top