$25 NLHE Full Ring: Cannot think of a short description please analyze

$25 NL HE Full Ring: Cannot think of a short description please analyze

I might have gotten away with this one please try to come up with your answers before checking the results. I will also include my thinking so you can pick it apart. Please tell me what I should be considering at every stage. Thanks in advance.

Stage #1624672696: Holdem No Limit $0.25 - 2009-09-04 21:41:01 (ET)
Table: TAFT AVE (real money) Seat #1 is the dealer
Seat 1 - SOPION ($28.93 in chips)
Seat 2 - AETPBS ($60.11 in chips)
Seat 3 - BLIEVE ($23.92 in chips)
Seat 4 - JSONSAN ($19.27 in chips)
Seat 5 - BUNG-HOLIO ($9.34 in chips)
Seat 6 - YOURPALNATE ($30.12 in chips)
Seat 7 - VIVIKOO ($17.60 in chips)
Seat 8 - KINGDAVE29 ($26.79 in chips)
Seat 9 - PAPPYPARASOLS ($18.54 in chips)
AETPBS - Posts small blind $0.10
BLIEVE - Posts big blind $0.25
KINGDAVE29 - Posts $0.25
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to BLIEVE [Ah 9s]
JSONSAN - Calls $0.25
BUNG-HOLIO - Calls $0.25
YOURPALNATE - Folds
VIVIKOO - Calls $0.25
KINGDAVE29 - Checks
PAPPYPARASOLS - Folds
SOPION - Folds
AETPBS - Folds
Solid stats on everyone except Bung Holio check with A9o
BLIEVE - Checks
*** FLOP *** [4s 9d 2d]
Shiet top pair top kicker, won't last till the river but definitely no one holding TT+ or they would raise PF...I will check raise, if checked around and 9 is no longer top pair fold.
BLIEVE - Checks
JSONSAN - Checks
BUNG-HOLIO - Checks
VIVIKOO - Checks
KINGDAVE29 - Bets $0.75
LP standard bet stealing the pot?
BLIEVE - Raises $3 to $3
Fold mofos fold u got nothing
JSONSAN - Folds
BUNG-HOLIO - All-In(Raise) $9.09 to $9.09
Wtf...fuk me
VIVIKOO - Folds
KINGDAVE29 - Folds
BLIEVE - ?????











$6 to possibly win $15...if I have him beat 40% of the time, I am good. Trips 4 trips 2? Low ace? Not two pair...he check raised my check raise...wow that feels like trips...but he's not a good player with that VSIP...aite I think its a toss up I call
BLIEVE - Calls $6.09
*** TURN *** [4s 9d 2d] 9♣
*** RIVER *** [4s 9d 2d 9c] 8♥
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BLIEVE - Shows [Ah 9s] (Three of a kind, nines)
JEAAAAAAAAAAAAA
BUNG-HOLIO - Shows [8d 5d] (Two Pair, nines and eights)
WTF a semibluff? On a check raiser? Ok
BLIEVE Collects $19.29 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($20.28) | Rake ($0.99)
Board [4s 9d 2d 9c 8h]
Seat 1: SOPION (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: AETPBS (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: BLIEVE (big blind) won Total ($19.29) HI$19.29) with Three of a kind, nines [Ah 9s - P:9s,B:9d,B:9c,P:Ah,B:8h]
Seat 4: JSONSAN Folded on the FLOP
Seat 5: BUNG-HOLIO HI:lost with Two Pair, nines and eights [8d 5d - B:9d,B:9c,B:8h,P:8d,P:5d]
Seat 6: YOURPALNATE Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 7: VIVIKOO Folded on the FLOP
Seat 8: KINGDAVE29 Folded on the FLOP
Seat 9: PAPPYPARASOLS Folded on the POCKET CARDS

While reviewing all my marked hands I realized I completely ignored one stat. PFR 0 on the villain. That means it was possible he had 44 or 22 without raising PF. I had suspected it but didn't use the stat to confirm this possibility so my question is would this change your play? What else did I miss in my analysis?

No one has any input? HELP A BROTHER OUTTTT

I'd have lead the flop, I don't see any reason to check there. Your flop ch/r is extremely strong - you're overrepping your hand. Villain is prob reacting to your ch/r potentially being a bluff when he shoves - he has air, not a semibluff - have you done something similar on this table before (i.e., overrepping your hand)?

Calling his allin readless strikes me as a bad play - he's repping a bigger hand than tptk and I don't see a reason to disbelieve him. Not just sets, but 2pr - couple of straight draws, but hard to credit those.

Im with sly on every thing except im acutaly calling aswell.
25nl halfstackers are just so bad that K9,89,9T,55-88 might all be in his range.
maybe im making a bad generlization but im not surprised by random junk here alot.

c/r the flop is just massivly over repping your hand and will often just lead to folding out worse and getting called by better.
I just pot the flop and expect to get value for a tone of hands.

Edit:
Also just leave the results out next time, they dont matter.
And turn on auto-reload so when u get in pot with a big stack u get his whole stack

I have to agree that the check raise is bad.

More for the fact that your TPTK isn't going to hold up with such a big field, you've got to fire out some kind of bet to make people pay to stay in. Bet 70-100% of the pot and get rid of everyone who hasn't hit or doesn't have a diamond draw. If a couple of guys flat call you and a diamond hits, you're in trouble. But at least if you can thin the crowd down to maybe two other players, when an overcard hits on the turn you can still maintain some form of aggression.

If my top pair is a 9, I'm not risking letting anyone see a free card and I'm certainly not letting a lot of people see one.

Thanks for the feedback let me try to address every advice mentioned.

To slycbnew
I do check raise and re-raise more than the average player but definitely not on this table during this session. And judging from villain stats, he wouldn't have noticed anyway. I think I might have folded to someone with more respectable lines but that 39 VSIP was just screaming at me. However I completely overlooked his 0 PFR stat so a 22 44 was definitely possible.

All respondents
Check raise is overrepping my hand, value bet is the way to go you guys say. Well this is my thinking. When I see a value bet from the BB in a limped pot and the flop is all low, I am going to put them on a pair. Now if I had value bet I highly doubt I can play the turn and river with a caller or even worse multiple callers. All of them had solid stats so I put them on suited connecters, low pairs or KTs A3s stuff like that. So what if a face card comes up on the turn? How would I play?

Thepokerkid123
You said that after a value bet "when an overcard hits on the turn you can still maintain some form of aggression" I dont really understand this. KTs diamonds QJs diamonds is very much in a limped range. A caller may call with a low straight draw, a pair, flush draw, overcards in position. They are more likely to re-raise with trips and at this point I cannot put anyone on a 2 pair based on the flop. If they call I have no solid information to act on, they can be holding air and bluff me in LP and I can't do nothing about it.

I had very tight stats (if any villains noticed) at the table and a check raise would not give away my hand. I felt I could semi bluff this one.

So I can definitely see why the check raise is no bueno but my main question is this. Was the final call justified based on opponents stats (39 VSIP/0 PFR) and range?

BLieve said:

All respondents
Check raise is overrepping my hand, value bet is the way to go you guys say. Well this is my thinking. When I see a value bet from the BB in a limped pot and the flop is all low, I am going to put them on a pair. Now if I had value bet I highly doubt I can play the turn and river with a caller or even worse multiple callers. All of them had solid stats so I put them on suited connecters, low pairs or KTs A3s stuff like that. So what if a face card comes up on the turn? How would I play?

Thepokerkid123
You said that after a value bet "when an overcard hits on the turn you can still maintain some form of aggression" I dont really understand this. KTs diamonds QJs diamonds is very much in a limped range. A caller may call with a low straight draw, a pair, flush draw, overcards in position. They are more likely to re-raise with trips and at this point I cannot put anyone on a 2 pair based on the flop. If they call I have no solid information to act on, they can be holding air and bluff me in LP and I can't do nothing about it.

Click to expand...

I don't completely disagree w sindri that calling makes sense, due to the fact that villain is a fish, but still think this line is not profitable generally. A re-raise over a ch/r (the ch/r represents a big hand, the re-raise should account for that) should be at least an overpair to the board, more likely two pair/set, even for a fish.

Think about postflop play a little bit. Let's say you have the best hand on the flop (a very reasonable assumption) and lead the flop and get 1 caller. That caller likely has overcards or a worse pair. Turn is a blank for villain - note that this will be the case the vast majority of the time - and you bet the turn NO MATTER WHAT THAT CARD IS. Let's say villain missed and folds - you just made more money than you should have w the ch/r, since you also get the called flop bet (I'm ignoring actual villain's spaz play here). Let's say villain missed and calls the turn - you've made even more money assuming he misses the river, which he likely has at most 6 outs for.

Now, let's say you bet the turn, villain calls, and neither the turn nor river improved your hand, and both cards are overcards to the 9. You can fold to any turn raise or river bet if desired (i'd prob fold to any raise, but would prob ch/call any moderate sized river bet against this villain). Regardless, once in a while, villain will improve and beat your unimproved hand.

Here's the key - The majority of the time villain will not improve. You want villain calling w overcards, w worse pairs, w draws etc. because you will make more money when they miss than you will lose when they hit. You will lose money over the short term when villain sucks out on you, but in the long run (statistically) you will make money.

Remember that the most common mistake microstakes players make is THEY CALL TOO OFTEN. Let them do that.

BLieve said:

All respondents
Check raise is overrepping my hand, value bet is the way to go you guys say. Well this is my thinking. When I see a value bet from the BB in a limped pot and the flop is all low, I am going to put them on a pair. Now if I had value bet I highly doubt I can play the turn and river with a caller or even worse multiple callers. All of them had solid stats so I put them on suited connecters, low pairs or KTs A3s stuff like that. So what if a face card comes up on the turn? How would I play?

Click to expand...

With TPTK on a pretty dry board like this one(except the FD) we basicly want to be bet/folding every street for value since villains rarly raises our double/triple barrel with worse but will often call one street with naked overs/backdoor draws or call down with stuff like T9s.
If villain does call the flop and the turn is a undercard im bettin the turn as well and then c/c the river hoping to get missed FDs our stuff like K9 to try to "bluff" us.
If the turn is a QKJ im still probably betting the turn and c/c the river because even thou i think villain might peel one street with naked overs his range is way wider then that after he calls the flop.
89/T9/K9/DD/55-88, along with the KQ/AT/QJ might all call a flop bet and where still geting value from alot of that range by betting a Q turn as well, and if villain does raise any street we can be pretty sure where behind and fold comfortable(this is assuming villain is your typical station type, any history/reads/stats that villain is raising super light means we can prolly stack of against him).

Basicly if a over hits it doesnt mean our hand sucks unless we think his range only has that specific over in his range, witch is obvs. never true.
A over on the turn is gonna make our hand harder to play but we should be considering what his range looks like and what part of his range likes that specific card and how that card changed our equity against his range instead of just thinking "Oh crap a over card he just sucked out!"

Good thread

slycbnew said:

I don't completely disagree w sindri that calling makes sense, due to the fact that villain is a fish, but still think this line is not profitable generally. A re-raise over a ch/r (the ch/r represents a big hand, the re-raise should account for that) should be at least an overpair to the board, more likely two pair/set, even for a fish.

Think about postflop play a little bit. Let's say you have the best hand on the flop (a very reasonable assumption) and lead the flop and get 1 caller. That caller likely has overcards or a worse pair. Turn is a blank for villain - note that this will be the case the vast majority of the time - and you bet the turn NO MATTER WHAT THAT CARD IS. Let's say villain missed and folds - you just made more money than you should have w the ch/r, since you also get the called flop bet (I'm ignoring actual villain's spaz play here). Let's say villain missed and calls the turn - you've made even more money assuming he misses the river, which he likely has at most 6 outs for.

Now, let's say you bet the turn, villain calls, and neither the turn nor river improved your hand, and both cards are overcards to the 9. You can fold to any turn raise or river bet if desired (i'd prob fold to any raise, but would prob ch/call any moderate sized river bet against this villain). Regardless, once in a while, villain will improve and beat your unimproved hand.

Here's the key - The majority of the time villain will not improve. You want villain calling w overcards, w worse pairs, w draws etc. because you will make more money when they miss than you will lose when they hit. You will lose money over the short term when villain sucks out on you, but in the long run (statistically) you will make money.

Remember that the most common mistake microstakes players make is THEY CALL TOO OFTEN. Let them do that.

Click to expand...

I see what you are saying sly and I smack myself once in a while for getting too fancy but in this instance I think playing OOP is such a large disadvantage because I have TPTK at the moment and any card hitting high low or diamond can screw me. I think it would not be uncommon for a straight or diamond draw (A3, A5, KTd, OJd) to call a value bet. With a c/r I am sending villains a strong message...but you are right I think I agree now that c/r was bad. Its possible that someone had 22 44 and I was lucky that the fish was the one re-raising all in.

One thing i forgot.
Can u please convert your hands in the future?
Its real simply just c/p the HH and u get a much cleaner and easier to read text out. I like the one at Stoxpoker and http://www.handconverter.com/


Absolute Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 271554
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter
BTN: $28.93
SB: $60.11
Hero (BB): $23.92
UTG: $19.27
UTG+1: $9.34
UTG+2: $30.12
MP1: $17.60
MP2: $26.79
CO: $18.54
MP2 posts a big blind ($0)
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with A 9
UTG calls $0, UTG+1 calls $0, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0, MP2 checks, 3 folds, Hero checks
Flop: ($0.35) 4 9 2 (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets $0.75, Hero raises to $3, UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $9.09 all in, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls $6.09
Turn: ($19.28) (2 players - 1 is all in)
River: ($19.28) (2 players - 1 is all in)
Final Pot: $19.28
Hero shows A 9 (Three of a kind, nines)
UTG+1 shows 8 5 (Two Pair, nines and eights)
Hero wins $19.29
(Rake: $-0.01)

See how much more easier it is to read this then the actual HH

sindri_93 said:

With TPTK on a pretty dry board like this one(except the FD) we basicly want to be bet/folding every street for value since villains rarly raises our double/triple barrel with worse but will often call one street with naked overs/backdoor draws or call down with stuff like T9s.
If villain does call the flop and the turn is a undercard im bettin the turn as well and then c/c the river hoping to get missed FDs our stuff like K9 to try to "bluff" us.
If the turn is a QKJ im still probably betting the turn and c/c the river because even thou i think villain might peel one street with naked overs his range is way wider then that after he calls the flop.
89/T9/K9/DD/55-88, along with the KQ/AT/QJ might all call a flop bet and where still geting value from alot of that range by betting a Q turn as well, and if villain does raise any street we can be pretty sure where behind and fold comfortable(this is assuming villain is your typical station type, any history/reads/stats that villain is raising super light means we can prolly stack of against him).

Basicly if a over hits it doesnt mean our hand sucks unless we think his range only has that specific over in his range, witch is obvs. never true.
A over on the turn is gonna make our hand harder to play but we should be considering what his range looks like and what part of his range likes that specific card and how that card changed our equity against his range instead of just thinking "Oh crap a over card he just sucked out!"

Click to expand...

The importance of position! The board may be semi dry but it can get wet easily. The opponent has a wide range and that might work in favor for him in that we dont know what he has and we must be cautious of many cards. A diamond is the most dangerous, a 3 or 5 might complete a low Ace straight draw. Any undercard might give him trips and any overcard gives him a better pair! Except Ace but that Ace better not be diamond! I think it is impossible to get aggressive on the turn. Maybe a pot sized bet on the turn? But I don't see any way I can barrel him three times.

Like I said about the SB with a value bet on a limped low flop before, If I was playing against him I will bluff/semi bluff the tilt out of him all day long with a good read. I can call with a draw and reraise on the turn with my draw or nothing. A solid player can easily do the same to me and theres nothing I can do about it with a pair of nines.

Can you possibly pull a check raise on a non diamond? Maybe this is the kind of hand to just check down the river because if you win you probably dont win much and a single wrong read will make you lose a lot.

I definitely bet out here. Your hand rates to be best right now but there are some draws out, and any card above a 9 (other than an ace) will really devalue your hand. If there is a player in late position who likes to stab at pots when it's checked to them, then a check-raise is a more viable option.

As played I call, usually you are looking at a worse 9 here.

slycbnew said:

Remember that the most common mistake microstakes players make is THEY CALL TOO OFTEN. Let them do that.

Click to expand...

Just thought i quote this because this really is the most important thing that has been said in this thread imo.
You can and should value bet thin against fish.

BLieve said:

The importance of position! The board may be semi dry but it can get wet easily. The opponent has a wide range and that might work in favor for him in that we dont know what he has and we must be cautious of many cards. A diamond is the most dangerous, a 3 or 5 might complete a low Ace straight draw. Any undercard might give him trips and any overcard gives him a better pair! Except Ace but that Ace better not be diamond! I think it is impossible to get aggressive on the turn. Maybe a pot sized bet on the turn? But I don't see any way I can barrel him three times.

Click to expand...

I said bet flop and turn and c/c river, thats just 2barrels in my book .
Try putting his range into pokerstove and see how u fair aginst it.
We have his range for peeling the flop crushed, most of his range has only 3-6 out against us, the only hand that has good equity against us is the FD+2overs witch where basicly fliping against.
If we bet the flop and get called and fire a To turn again where still geting value from alot of his range.
Even if the turn is diamond we can still bet/fold the turn since where still geting value from worse pairs/kicker and some backdoor draws he might have picked up.
His 9s are still calling, his FD is still calling,some of the backdoor overs are still calling because the gained outs on the turn(KQ/QJ).

On the one hand u say his range for calling the flop would be wide but for some reason u think that is a bad thing?
If he is calling wide just means where geting value from alot more hands then usual and will there for win more money in the long run.
Where not just playing against his specific hand but the entire range he would take these actions with over the long run.

BLieve said:

Like I said about the SB with a value bet on a limped low flop before, If I was playing against him I will bluff/semi bluff the tilt out of him all day long with a good read. I can call with a draw and reraise on the turn with my draw or nothing. A solid player can easily do the same to me and theres nothing I can do about it with a pair of nines.

Click to expand...

In general most players are not going to be raising u with worse then TPTK(and the players that do like to raise alot give them self away pretty quickly),
And if u do get raised on the turn u can just fold unless u have some reads/stats that villain like raising turns light(if u have more then 100+ hands on villain u should have a good idea if he is going to be doing that).
And if u do have a read/stats that villain like to raise scare cards on turn u can allways use this hand to bluff catch.

BLieve said:

Can you possibly pull a check raise on a non diamond? Maybe this is the kind of hand to just check down the river because if you win you probably dont win much and a single wrong read will make you lose a lot.

Click to expand...

You shouldnt be scared of losing pots, your only focus should be how to maximize your earning when your ahead and minmize them when your behind.
IMO bet/folding flop and turn and c/c river is the best way to do that in this specific spot.

Just my 2cents....