$25 NLHE Full Ring: Is this an automatic shove, at the turn?

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RAFC24

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$25 NL HE Full Ring: Is this an automatic shove, at the turn?

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 22/22/2

only 9 hands on villain however

MP2: $32.44 (129.8 bb)
Hero (MP3): $25.64 (102.6 bb)
CO: $44.45 (177.8 bb)
BTN: $25.37 (101.5 bb)
SB: $50.28 (201.1 bb)
BB: $12.42 (49.7 bb)
MP1: $4.12 (16.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP3 with J
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J
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2 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, CO folds, BTN raises to $2.25, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.50

I have to at least call here with JJ

Flop: ($4.85) 8
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9
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6
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(2 players)
Hero bets $4.85, BTN raises to $11.50, Hero calls $6.65

Overpair and flush draw, not sure why I called here, I should have raised?

Turn: ($27.85) 5
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(2 players)
Hero bets $11.89 and is all-in, BTN calls $11.62 and is all-in

At this point my reasoning was I have 9 flush cards and 2 jacks to help me
thus odds against making my hand of about 3.2 to 1, the turn didnt change anything so I had pot odds of 3 to 1 on the flop so I shoved it here. It was pretty obvious he had a set or a big draw.

River: ($51.09) 6
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(2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: $51.09 pot ($2.55 rake)
Final Board: 8
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9
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6
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5
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6
heart4.gif


Thanks!
 
S93

S93

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Villains 3bet stats?
tbh i either stack or fold this prf a vast majority of the time.
Where gonna be OOP which suck and gonna make it really hard to extract anything from the part of his range we actualy beat on any given flop and thats ignoring all the shitty spots we get into when a over hits.
If he is 3betting and cbetting a alot but shutting down when 4bet its fine imo but other then i just ship it in or fold.

Reason for donkbetting? Not saying i hate it just like to know why.

After we donk and he raises i cant see how we can possible call.

Jamming sure if u think he does this with worse.

Folding yeah fine to since where OOP with a weak hand against a villain that has shown nothing but strength on a scary board.

But calling, dont like it. Where OOP on scary as hell board with no clean outs in a inflated pot. I wouldnt be to sure to count your clubs as outs since his range is gonna be mostly good broadway/big PPs and thouse are gonna have the q,k or ace of clubs a decent amount.
Also when our clubs are clean how are we gonna get value from worse?
Yeah sure the pot is huge allready and only 11$ behind but do you think a overpair with no club is calling/jamming when the 4to a flush hits?

No offence but i hate every street.
Prf i 4bet or fold.
On the flop i prefer c/r over donking IF villain is likly to get out of line with worse(dont really think he has alot of worse hands in his range).
And after we donk i just stick it in.

I dont really think where ever good on the turn unless villain had exactly AcKx or AcQx, maybe TcTx on occasion.
But since we let the pot get so big i dont see how we can possibly fold the turn
 
thepokerkid123

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Yeah, once you get to the turn you have to shove/call but what's much more important here is how you got to the turn.

I think calling pre-flop is a mistake and this is a 4bet or fold. On the flop it is absolutely a 3bet or fold, what does calling achieve here? I think as soon as you make your flop bet your stack is commited ($15 pot with $18 behind with an overpair and flush draw) but definately once you call his raise you're playing for stacks.


I really don't agree with the pre-flop call though, why do you have to at least call? What is his range and what value does your hand have against that? If you think you're ahead, 4bet, if you think you're behind can you set mine (normally really bad in 3bet pots OOP, but $1.50 with $25 effective stacks is near the maximum I'd be willing to pay if he overplays overpairs). I think you should often be folding or 4betting and very occasionally set mining, what do you hope to achieve by calling?

On the flop it's a check-shove, if he cbets a lot or a donk bet with the intention of getting stacks in as soon as possible. You have slight equity against a range of TT+/AK+ and a 22/22/2 likely has a much wider 3betting range than that, assuming only TT+ and AK with a flush draw/made flush calls your bet (so you get no value from anything weaker) your equity is really close, and I think he calls you with the occasional 9 or JT which you have dominated.
 
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ok, thanks gentlemen for your reply. I'm gonna mull over what was said and comment later. These are the kinds of destackings that are hurting my bottom line. These are the big goofs I absolutely need to eliminate from my game.
 
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Hi guys,

Ok I thought the hand through and here was my reasoning through it.

Sindri and pokerkid:

My reason for calling preflop: I know I will be OOP for the rest of the hand but remember that this is 25nl and while players here are not necessarily brain dead and ultra tight prf + just nine hands on villain but somewhat reasonable stats, I think JJ is still a reasonable hand to see a flop with.

Yes, calling OOP with lots of potential shitty cards coming on the flop is a real problem but im still learning the game and I often cold call with small to medium pairs to either set mine or play on a good flop. So Im not entirely in the loop as to proper raise or fold or cold call decisions preflop.

Reason for donkbetting: well an overpair of JJ+ at 25nl, I bet half the pot because

a) I still dont have a terrible hand compared to the board. Even though, yes it very likely could be behind.

b) Its a very dangerous drawy board and by making a pot sized bet, I am giving him 2 to 1 odds to call if he is drawing. If he decides to call with whatever draw he has, then i did the best I could by making him make a mistake by betting.

c) Yeah he showed strenght preflop , yeah its a dangerous board, but im not checking to potentially let him see a free card to beat me. I often see guys raise preflop and then shut down on all kinds of random boards at these limits.

d) And I believe in taking the lead in the betting by showing agression. Im either way ahead or way behind here, and his reaction will help confirm it.

He reraised me telling me hes either got a strong hand here (OP to my OP or a set,very likely) or re-raising as a semi-bluff with his random draws.

This is the point where I messed up and where calling was a completely useless move. I should have known I was almost certianly 100% beat. I called because I was ' hoping' to catch a club or a jack. I got a bit attached to my hands potential. Folding or raising as u mentionned would have been the only acceptable plays, especially folding IMO.

Thanks lots for your feedback
 
S93

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RAFC24 said:
Hi guys,

Ok I thought the hand through and here was my reasoning through it.

Sindri and pokerkid:

My reason for calling preflop: I know I will be OOP for the rest of the hand but remember that this is 25nl and while players here are not necessarily brain dead and ultra tight prf + just nine hands on villain but somewhat reasonable stats, I think JJ is still a reasonable hand to see a flop with.

Yes, calling OOP with lots of potential shitty cards coming on the flop is a real problem but im still learning the game and I often cold call with small to medium pairs to either set mine or play on a good flop. So Im not entirely in the loop as to proper raise or fold or cold call decisions preflop.
Set mining 3bet pots is gonna lose u alot of money.
Set mining 3bet pots OOP is gonna lose u even more money.
 Reason for donkbetting: well an overpair of JJ+ at 25nl, I bet half the pot because

a) I still dont have a terrible hand compared to the board. Even though, yes it very likely could be behind.
This is a terrible reason imo. JJ and basicly any one pair hand isnt very good here unless u have the AAc or KKc.
We can never count on our flush beeing live here.
b) Its a very dangerous drawy board and by making a pot sized bet, I am giving him 2 to 1 odds to call if he is drawing. If he decides to call with whatever draw he has, then i did the best I could by making him make a mistake by betting.
not really. All the hands he continues either have us crushed or have great equity against us(TcT/A9 about all we can hope for).
If he has Ac K/Q he still has 49% equity and he isnt making a mistake.
Basicly it really hard for him to make a mistake after your bet.
c) Yeah he showed strenght preflop , yeah its a dangerous board, but im not checking to potentially let him see a free card to beat me. I often see guys raise preflop and then shut down on all kinds of random boards at these limits.
Him checking behind would be a good thing imo.
Were not ahead of his range or have the deck crushed.
Him checking behind means we could get to showdown with out having to commite our entier stack and we dont really have a hand we want to ship in since when called were usualy behind.
 d) And I believe in taking the lead in the betting by showing agression. Im either way ahead or way behind here, and his reaction will help confirm it.
THE WHOLE POINT OF WA/WB IS THAT U SHOULD PLAY PASSIVLY TO ENDUCE FROM THE WORSE PART OF HIS RANGE(in caps because its important :))
This isnt a wa/wb spot either btw. This probably a barrly ahead/wb because its such a wet board.
 He reraised me telling me hes either got a strong hand here (OP to my OP or a set,very likely) or re-raising as a semi-bluff with his random draws.
So in fact your silly bet for information told u he had a good or a bad hand?
So was that bet worth it then?
 This is the point where I messed up and where calling was a completely useless move. I should have known I was almost certianly 100% beat. I called because I was ' hoping' to catch a club or a jack. I got a bit attached to my hands potential. Folding or raising as u mentionned would have been the only acceptable plays, especially folding IMO.
Again, we cant count on the clubs beeing clean outs.
And calling to spike a 2outer on board u could be drawing near dead on is simply a big mistake.
Thanks lots for your feedback
Click to expand...
In red.
 
thepokerkid123

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Yes, calling OOP with lots of potential shitty cards coming on the flop is a real problem but im still learning the game and I often cold call with small to medium pairs to either set mine or play on a good flop. So Im not entirely in the loop as to proper raise or fold or cold call decisions preflop.
Click to expand...

I'm not concerned about bad flops, I'm concerned about calling OOP. If you had AA or 22 I'd say the same.
Either JJ is good against his range or it's dominated, seeing a flop is going to be bad either way. When it's a low flop you win a small pot because AK/AQ fold or lose a really big pot because QQ+ aren't going anywhere, when it's a high flop you lose regardless of what he has (even if it's a SCer or small pair) because big cards hit his range really hard and it will be -EV to continue.
If you 4bet pre-flop, AK is still in his range which helps you a lot (improves your equity) and when he does just call then you have the initiative, it doesn't matter what hits on the flop because the big cards hit your range harder than his and the low cards are the ones you're prepared to play for stacks on. I'm not saying 4betting is the best play, I'm leaning towards folding but I prefer either to just calling.
 
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