$25 NLHE Full Ring: AK facing a raise preflop

No Brainer · Feb 23, 2011

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 15/12/3

Villain is a decent reg with a 60% fold to 3 bet. Blinds are nitty and are likely to fold.

Are you raising this? if so is it for value or as a bluff?

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
SB ($25)
BB ($38.84)
UTG ($90.05)
UTG+1 ($25)
UTG+2 ($35.42)
MP1 ($43.52)
CO ($25)
Hero ($25)

Dealt to Hero A♠ K♣

fold, fold, fold, MP1 raises to $0.85, fold, Hero

baudib1 · Feb 23, 2011

No Brainer · Feb 23, 2011

baudib1 · Feb 23, 2011

You have AK on the button = raise.

No Brainer · Feb 23, 2011

because the cool kids do it? Do you know why you are raising it?

c9h13no3 · Feb 23, 2011

Because initiative + position + good hand + Correct SPR for our hand = $$$$

???

baudib1 · Feb 23, 2011

I don't see how we make any profit off this guy by flatting in position; he's not raising A2; he's a nit who will probably check-fold if we outflop him. If we 3-bet him he'll fold a lot pre and also check-fold a good part of his continuing range even when we whiff.

You could make a case for flatting if the blinds were squeeze-happy.

ben_rhyno · Feb 23, 2011

Surely you 3-bet for value vs an MP open who is still calling 40% of 3-bets.

No Brainer · Feb 23, 2011

Yeh I was just thinking about it and thought I may post a hand to see if we could get some discussion going on it but I think you have nailed it already...

We are not raising purely for value as we are not expecting him to call with a worse range. More as a kind of semi bluff as he will fold a lot of his range pre and even if he calls we do have ~40% equity, initiative and position on him so it allows us to play it well.

Another reason for flatting may be if we have a big fish in the blinds who we can make more from post flop.

c9h13no3 said:
Because initiative + position + good hand + Correct SPR for our hand = $$$$

???

Is a 3-4 SPR pot really good for a hand that will be flopping top pair type hands more often than not?

No Brainer · Feb 23, 2011

ben_rhyno said:
Surely you 3-bet for value vs an MP open who is still calling 40% of 3-bets.

I would imagine his range for calling a 3 bet oop against someone who isn't a maniac would look something like TT-QQ AK and maybe AQs. Against this range we have around 40% equity so a 3 bet is not really for value.

Jagsti · Feb 23, 2011

I mix this up depending on a lot of factors, table dynamics, image etc etc. I have been flatting this hand a lot recently. My thoughts on this are villain is likely playing a lot of hands we dominate where if we 3b, we fold out a lot of those hands. If he flats then yeah we have position but if we whiff flop then were hoping we hit turn/river if we're allowed to. If he 4bs were up against a pretty strong range in FR were at best splitting is our best hope.

This is not a 'no brainer' (excuse the pun) 3b here imo.

baudib1 · Feb 23, 2011

well I think it is understand we are essentially always "semi-bluffing for value" with AK.

If we were to flat AK to keep dominated hands in, which, really, is probably an overrated idea anyway, I'd rather do it in the BB vs. a BTN opener who is going to have all Ax/Kx not to mention Q-high and worse in his range. This guy in particular is not going to have a lot of those hands to begin with so flatting to keep in the hands we're crushing is of minimal value.

We should be able to play against a range with 40% equity and position profitably.

If we want to fold to a small 4-bet that utterly reeks of strength in this spot, that's also fine. So if we assume he is never flatting with AA/KK we become a pretty healthy favorite over TT-QQ/AQ+.

The problem is -- to play profitably against whatever his continuing range is, we need to pump more money into the pot preflop and deny him odds to call with set-mining hands and also to extract value from the hands that aren't going to put a cent into the pot after we flop top pair.

Also, if he flats pre with AK we become a pretty huge favorite to win the pot if we 3-bet precisely because we have position and iniative. Whereas if we flat and he cbets AK on a 633 flop we probably fold.

ben_rhyno · Feb 23, 2011

This is what I was getting at but couldn't explain myself as well as this. I also agree with the part about folding to a 4-bet

c9h13no3 · Feb 23, 2011

No Brainer said:
Is a 3-4 SPR pot really good for a hand that will be flopping top pair type hands more often than not?

Educate yourself my son:

http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/general/spr/

Jagsti · Feb 23, 2011

baudib1 said:
well I think it is understand we are essentially always "semi-bluffing for value" with AK.

WTF is this shit!

If we were to flat AK to keep dominated hands in, which, really, is probably an overrated idea anyway, I'd rather do it in the BB vs. a BTN opener who is going to have all Ax/Kx not to mention Q-high and worse in his range. This guy in particular is not going to have a lot of those hands to begin with so flatting to keep in the hands we're crushing is of minimal value.

Why would he not have those hands here (QT+ KT+ AJ+), he's effectively in the HJ he's 15/12/3 what hands do you think he's playing? When we 3b here we fold out all of this range usually.

We should be able to play against a range with 40% equity and position profitably.

If we want to fold to a small 4-bet that utterly reeks of strength in this spot, that's also fine. So if we assume he is never flatting with AA/KK we become a pretty healthy favorite over TT-QQ/AQ+.

The problem is -- to play profitably against whatever his continuing range is, we need to pump more money into the pot preflop and deny him odds to call with set-mining hands and also to extract value from the hands that aren't going to put a cent into the pot after we flop top pair.

Also, if he flats pre with AK we become a pretty huge favorite to win the pot if we 3-bet precisely because we have position and iniative. Whereas if we flat and he cbets AK on a 633 flop we probably fold.

Responses in bold

billdogg · Feb 23, 2011

So am I losing value in letting the dominated hands stay in and think they are value betting me? I usually 3 bet this hand, but wanted to try a different line. I think if I 3 bet, I would have made less on hand.

Full Tilt - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $5.87
CO: $5.34
Hero (BTN): $6.24
SB: $5.29
BB: $7.03

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has A:diamond: K:spade:

fold, CO raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, SB calls $0.18, fold

Flop: ($0.65, 3 players) J:heart: 2:club: A:club:
SB checks, CO bets $0.45, Hero calls $0.45, fold

Turn: ($1.55, 2 players) 3:heart:
CO bets $0.85, Hero calls $0.85

River: ($3.25, 2 players) 7:diamond:
CO checks, Hero bets $1.80, CO calls $1.80

Hero shows A:diamond: K:spade: (One Pair, Aces) (PreFlop 74%, Flop 83%, Turn 93%)
CO mucks A:heart: Q:club: (One Pair, Aces) (PreFlop 26%, Flop 17%, Turn 7%)
Hero wins $6.40

baudib1 · Feb 23, 2011

Jagsti said:
Responses in bold

2/3 of his range is pairs, and the odds of flopping a dominating pair when he has Kx/Ax is the same as flopping a set, i.e. it's not going to happen very often against this guy.

No Brainer · Feb 24, 2011

baudib1 said:
If we want to fold to a small 4-bet that utterly reeks of strength in this spot, that's also fine. So if we assume he is never flatting with AA/KK we become a pretty healthy favorite over TT-QQ/AQ+.

I cant see a reg flatting a 3 bet oop with AQo. Some may flat with AQs but I think it would more often be TT-QQ, AK. Against this range we are not doing so great.

If we know we can make more post flop from this reg by flatting than we would make by 3 betting then we should flat.

If we are not sure then I think we should 3 bet. By 3 betting we will get a fold ~75% of the time and that is going to be profitable in the long run. If we get called we will hit the flop 33% of the time and will have a good hand to take to showdown. Even if we check or fold the other 66% of the time we will still be making money.

The thing is just because our line will be profitable doesn't mean it is optimal.

No Brainer · Feb 24, 2011

baudib1 said:
2/3 of his range is pairs, and the odds of flopping a dominating pair when he has Kx/Ax is the same as flopping a set, i.e. it's not going to happen very often against this guy.

What range are you talking about here? His 3 bet flatting range? or his opening range?

baudib1 · Feb 24, 2011

Assuming his opening range from MP2 (I'm not sure, but I don't think positional ranges change a ton at MP2 in FR) is something like any pair, ATs+/AJo+, KJs-KQs, KQo...he has something like 42 combos of Ax/Kx (that does not include As, Kc) and around 87 combos of other stuff.

ComplexPlaya · Feb 24, 2011

billdogg said:
So am I losing value in letting the dominated hands stay in and think they are value betting me? I usually 3 bet this hand, but wanted to try a different line. I think if I 3 bet, I would have made less on hand.

Full Tilt - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $5.87
CO: $5.34
Hero (BTN): $6.24
SB: $5.29
BB: $7.03

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has A♦ K♠

fold, CO raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, SB calls $0.18, fold

Flop: ($0.65, 3 players) J♥ 2♣ A♣
SB checks, CO bets $0.45, Hero calls $0.45, fold

Turn: ($1.55, 2 players) 3♥
CO bets $0.85, Hero calls $0.85

River: ($3.25, 2 players) 7♦
CO checks, Hero bets $1.80, CO calls $1.80

Hero shows A♦ K♠ (One Pair, Aces) (PreFlop 74%, Flop 83%, Turn 93%)
CO mucks A♥ Q♣ (One Pair, Aces) (PreFlop 26%, Flop 17%, Turn 7%)
Hero wins $6.40

Good grief, you should have gotten his stack here hands down. Poorly played, why not raise the flop? He can easily put you on a draw and get it in. He's never fold TPGK anyway

As for this, if you 3-bet he calls you and it's even easier to get stacks in. And for the times the "magic card" A doesn't flop you make more

$25 NLHE Full Ring: AK facing a raise preflop

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane

baudib1

Legend

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane

baudib1

Legend

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

baudib1

Legend

ben_rhyno

Legend

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane

Jagsti

I'm sweet enough!

baudib1

Legend

ben_rhyno

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c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

Jagsti

I'm sweet enough!

billdogg

Visionary

baudib1

Legend

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane

baudib1

Legend

ComplexPlaya

Legend

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