$25 NLHE Full Ring: 3 betting a stealer

NineLions

NineLions

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$25 NL HE Full Ring: 3 betting a stealer

After over 2 months of not playing much I'm trying to get myself playing again, so re-starting with $25nl.

Villain has a steal percentage of 50% over 60 hands so I opt to 3 bet in position.


Poker Stars - $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em (9 players)
Poker Stars Hand History Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: $25.00
BB: $27.70
UTG: $23.25
MP: $25.00
MP+1: $25.30
MP+2: $32.18
LP: $25.00
CO: $44.01
BTN Hero: $25.44

Pre-flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN and dealt :8c4: :6c4:
5 folds, CO raises to $0.75, Hero raises to $2.00, 2 folds, CO calls $1.25

Flop: ($4.35) :as4: :4h4: :ks4: (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $3.00, CO calls $3.00

Turn: ($10.35) :as4: :4h4: :ks4: :5s4: (2 players)



Thoughts on the preflop 3 bet?

On the flop bet?

What do we do on the turn?
 
WVHillbilly

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Did he check again on the turn?
 
WVHillbilly

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I probably fire again but I am prone to spew so take it fwiw. Would like to know FT3b and FTCbet but our sample is so small they're likely meaningless.

As for preflop, I think it's fine as long as he's not too sticky postflop. I think the flop is a bet every time.
 
cjatud2012

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I don't really play ring so I would like to ask why you decided to 3-bet on the small side-- not saying it's good or bad, I just really don't know.
 
NineLions

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If I'm repping AK/AA/KK/QQ/JJ preflop, I'm starting to think firing the turn might be the most representative; ie. AA/KK/AK trying to make sure he doesn't have a single spade, though, the As and Ks are gone so that leaves mostly QQ/JJ/TT and probably some portion of other PP that people seem to think are potential profitable set mines in 3 bet pots.

I dunno; AA/KK/AK might be too small of a range to represent, even though it's FR and $25nl?

But if I don't have at least two pair on the flop, my default play is to check when the 3 flush comes on the turn, unless I have the flush or am up against a fish. My top pair or overpair suddenly becomes a smaller hand. The problem with doing so is that it opens me up to being bluffed off the river when I have nothing like this, whereas if I have something I can call a river bet. So since this is my default in this situation with TP, I opted to check, with the advantage of keeping the pot smaller, but that's a small range too; like AQ/AJ or so for 3 betting pre?
 
NineLions

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I don't really play ring so I would like to ask why you decided to 3-bet on the small side-- not saying it's good or bad, I just really don't know.

3x would be 2.25 so it's not that small, and when I have position I'll go toward smaller. If I'm in the blinds I'll go on the larger side, unless I have AA.
 
blueskies

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He's probably not letting that go unless you shove it. Once he calls the flop bet, you're toast. You tried to resteal and it didn't work. I would just check the turn and hope I hit a 7. Then fold to a river bet if I miss.
 
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sounds like some real savy poker players here at cardschat.I agree with blueskies.it looks like a very dominating board on just cathing a straight on fifth street.That is not a position you want to be in but if sense weakness just be patient.tough call and tough run to fifth street
 
NineLions

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He's probably not letting that go unless you shove it. Once he calls the flop bet, you're toast. You tried to resteal and it didn't work. I would just check the turn and hope I hit a 7. Then fold to a river bet if I miss.

If you had AK or AQ here, what would you do? He's got something, but I've 3 bet preflop and he's just called preflop and on the flop, so his something could well be JJ/TT/99 and he's waiting to see what I do on the turn.

sounds like some real savy poker players here at cardschat.I agree with blueskies.it looks like a very dominating board on just cathing a straight on fifth street.That is not a position you want to be in but if sense weakness just be patient.tough call and tough run to fifth street

I don't think we're hoping for anything on the river; our hand was almost entirely a bluff from the beginning, done so because our opponent steals often so his range of hands is wide when he raises preflop. We might have caught something nice with it on the flop, but we didn't, so we need to rep a big hand as long as is reasonable to pressure him. I think his call of the 3 bet is likely a bad one if he's unsure of where he is because he's check/calling, or, he's slowplaying a pretty big hand; a made flush or AA/KK/AK. There are a lot more weak Ace and King and medium pocket pair hands that are in his range than just the big hands.


This is $25nl so some players think a little more than $10nl, but less than $100nl, both of which I've played. I think the fact that he steals often indicates he understands position which might be an indicator that he can call the flop with QQ/JJ/TT/99/KQ but will read my "hand" and fold to another bet.


As it turned out, a off-suit J came on the river, a yucky card, but after we both checked the turn (me feigning being afraid of the flush) and he didn't bet the river, I made a "value bet" of half pot. He tanked and folded.

But I'm more inclined now to be the turn and fold river, though waiting for a non-spade to come on the river (if he had a single spade) and his check gave me additional information. I also didn't like the idea of betting the turn if he had a spade and then having to consider firing again into a bigger pot on the river if a non-spade came.
 
zek

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Villain has a steal percentage of 50% over 60 hands so I opt to 3 bet in position.

Preflop question - What were their fold to 3bet and steal then fold stats? I like to see high rates there too along with ATS before re raising a frequent stealer. I'd also want tight players in the blinds so I'm not risking getting re re-raised myself too much. The flop bet can be argued either way. I would have checked (more likely) or made a much smaller bet (less likely). Once they called the flop bet shut down and check/fold it out.
 
WVHillbilly

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He's probably not letting that go unless you shove it. Once he calls the flop bet, you're toast. You tried to resteal and it didn't work. I would just check the turn and hope I hit a 7. Then fold to a river bet if I miss.

I agree with blueskies.it looks like a very dominating board on just cathing a straight on fifth street.That is not a position you want to be in but if sense weakness just be patient.tough call and tough run to fifth street

The flop bet can be argued either way. I would have checked (more likely) or made a much smaller bet (less likely). Once they called the flop bet shut down and check/fold it out.

Guys if you're not willing to barrel these boards occasionally when they absolutely smack your perceived range you're missing out on a lot of value.

Remember we 3bet preflop so this AKx flop should give us lot of strong hands in our range (TP, 2pair, sets). Villain can basically never show up with 2pair+ here so our range beats his range therefor if we keep betting we likely force lots of folds (assuming we believe he's competent enough to understand this).

As for betting the turn or the river, I like a turn bet slightly more because I think we can do it small (~$5) and get lots of folds. If we do get called on the small turn bet we'll have $15 left behind for the river shove into a pot of ~$20 if he checks again. If the hand played out that way I would shove ANY river (even the 4th spade).

Also I think you'll see hands like AQ call a river bet more often than it will call a turn bet with the threat of the river all in looming.
 
zek

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Guys if you're not willing to barrel these boards occasionally when they absolutely smack your perceived range you're missing out on a lot of value.

You ran right over my more important thought. The missing/additional pre-flop information. What do you think about that?
 
WVHillbilly

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I agree those stats would be nice but with only 60 hands his ATS is barely relevant much less the stats you're looking for. I was only posting to answer to the mentality of cbet/give-up when I really don't think that's our best play here because this board hits our range so hard.
 
NineLions

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You ran right over my more important thought. The missing/additional pre-flop information. What do you think about that?

So in this instance you'd avoid this situation altogether until you get more hands/stats? Perfectly reasonable, I think.

I don't grind a lot or play long sessions so I'm used to extrapolating or guessing based on what I have to work with stats-wise.
 
c9h13no3

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Villain has a steal percentage of 50% over 60 hands so I opt to 3 bet in position.
I really hate the way that you're looking at this. A high steal percentage alone in a vacuum is pretty pointless. A guy with a steal percentage of 50% could just be crazy loose/aggressive! The last thing we want is to try to re-steal from a guy who doesn't give up.

When I wrote my 3-bet post, the two most important things I looked for (besides my cards & position) was our opponent's range and his ability to fold. If our opponent isn't folding to 3-bets, we need to turn our 3-bet range on its head, 3-betting AJ/KQ/TT instead of 86s. And when in doubt, if I didn't have stats, I'd lean towards value 3-betting too wide.

And other stats such as VPIP & PFR should give you an idea of whether this guy is just a crazy LAG, or a positionally aware TAG. You're more likely to get the latter to fold, while the former is going to make crazy bluffs & make your life suck when you 3-bet 86s. You've got to have SOME indication on which type this player is.

As played, I just check the turn & give up barring a 7, maybe a spade. I can't really think of any hand that peels here in a 3-bet pot, except for maybe KQ.
 
zek

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So in this instance you'd avoid this situation altogether until you get more hands/stats?

I didn't say that. Another post implied it. I disagree and think 50 hands is more than enough to know if someone is seeing 6% or 20% of flops and to have a general idea of how they play. If they have a high ATS and also 100% fold to 3bet etc then push back until they show interest in a hand. without the additional information I don't think it's worth talking about the rest of the hand since we don't know enough to make our pre-flop decision.
 
rssurfer54

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I agree those stats would be nice but with only 60 hands his ATS is barely relevant much less the stats you're looking for. I was only posting to answer to the mentality of cbet/give-up when I really don't think that's our best play here because this board hits our range so hard.

+1. I would definitely fired the 2nd barrel. There are many villains who will call flop then fold to turn cbet, especially in 3bet pots, since they are afraid of being pushed around. This all assumes I played that hand pre anyway, but if we are going to be 3betting this, i think this is a great time to bet again.
 
NineLions

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I really hate the way that you're looking at this. A high steal percentage alone in a vacuum is pretty pointless. A guy with a steal percentage of 50% could just be crazy loose/aggressive! The last thing we want is to try to re-steal from a guy who doesn't give up.

When I wrote my 3-bet post, the two most important things I looked for (besides my cards & position) was our opponent's range and his ability to fold. If our opponent isn't folding to 3-bets, we need to turn our 3-bet range on its head, 3-betting AJ/KQ/TT instead of 86s. And when in doubt, if I didn't have stats, I'd lean towards value 3-betting too wide.

And other stats such as VPIP & PFR should give you an idea of whether this guy is just a crazy LAG, or a positionally aware TAG. You're more likely to get the latter to fold, while the former is going to make crazy bluffs & make your life suck when you 3-bet 86s. You've got to have SOME indication on which type this player is.

As played, I just check the turn & give up barring a 7, maybe a spade. I can't really think of any hand that peels here in a 3-bet pot, except for maybe KQ.

I don't think he was crazy LAG; I'm not positive, but if his VPIP/PFR indicated LAG I would have noticed/mentioned it. That's the first thing I look at before steal %. A high steal % from a LAG means something different than a high steal % from a nit, which, for some reason I've been seeing a lot of lately; 9/8 with steal of 45% over a couple hundred hands.
 
c9h13no3

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I don't think he was crazy LAG
I didn't say he was a LAG.

I'd like to know if he's the type to give up post-flop (or pre), or if he's going to fight tooth & nail for every cent. Because if our plan for the hand is bluff this guy, and he doesn't like to fold, isn't that kinda a bad idea? Guys can have 23/18 stats (or whatever the full ring equivalent is) and still be unable to give up pre & postflop.

this board hits our range so hard.
Since this board hits our range hard, why do you think we need to fire 2 barrels here? We've 3-bet preflop and c-bet a board that NAILS our range. What calls the flop that folds the turn? KQ/ MAYBE QQ is really the only hand I can conjure up, and if this guy has a spade to go with it, he probably isn't folding anyways.

And 60 hands is more than enough. You stat nits are all nuts. You make decisions about a guy's hand all the time based on limited information, but you're not willing to make a decision about his tendencies unless villain has played 1 million hands with you. Poker is a game of limited information, and 60 hands is more than enough to start drawing conclusions about something so common as stealing. VPIP, PFR, AFq, and steal % all converge fast. In 60 hands, that's 10 orbits at 6-max, so you've been given probably 20 times to steal if someone doesn't open in front of you, which is plenty. I realize this is full ring, so that may converge slower, but still, you can at least say this guy is positionally aware.
 
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NineLions

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Pre will start to converge; steal and 3 bet, as well as VPIP and PFR will be becoming representative (though I can be anywhere between 24 to 10 for VPIP in that time frame), but postflop is gonna take longer to be representative, unless his VPIP is 60 or something.

And I think that at $25nl there are medium-high pairs that might call flop and fold to a second barrel, whether the turn or the river. If he has a spade, he's probably not folding turn though. At $10nl I wouldn't be surprised to see 33 call all 3 streets on occasion, especially if one is a spade, but I don't expect that here from someone that understands position at least.

Or what about Ax suited, no spade obv? I wouldn't put that out of his preflop range, but how many streets do think he check/calls here?
 
WVHillbilly

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I didn't say he was a LAG.

I'd like to know if he's the type to give up post-flop (or pre), or if he's going to fight tooth & nail for every cent. Because if our plan for the hand is bluff this guy, and he doesn't like to fold, isn't that kinda a bad idea? Guys can have 23/18 stats (or whatever the full ring equivalent is) and still be unable to give up pre & postflop.

Since this board hits our range hard, why do you think we need to fire 2 barrels here? We've 3-bet preflop and c-bet a board that NAILS our range. What calls the flop that folds the turn? KQ/ MAYBE QQ is really the only hand I can conjure up, and if this guy has a spade to go with it, he probably isn't folding anyways.

And 60 hands is more than enough. You stat nits are all nuts. You make decisions about a guy's hand all the time based on limited information, but you're not willing to make a decision about his tendencies unless villain has played 1 million hands with you. Poker is a game of limited information, and 60 hands is more than enough to start drawing conclusions about something so common as stealing. VPIP, PFR, AFq, and steal % all converge fast. In 60 hands, that's 10 orbits at 6-max, so you've been given probably 20 times to steal if someone doesn't open in front of you, which is plenty. I realize this is full ring, so that may converge slower, but still, you can at least say this guy is positionally aware.

60 hands is more than enough for the basic stats, I completely agree but he was asked for how often the villain folds to 3bets or how often he calls 3bets and folds to cbet. No way those stats are accurate and a lot of time we don't even have 1 example of either in only 60 hand with a 50% ATS.

As for barreling, it's either because I love or hate money. Believe it or not FR nits will fold weaker Aces to a turn bet.
 
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