$25 NLHE 6-max: Unconventional AA Play Runs into River Trouble

25nl Zone on Bovada, so no reads.

MP opens 75c, I 3b to $2 with AA in CO, he flats. we were about 200bb deep to start the hand.

(Pot = ~ $4.20)
Flop J J 8 r
He checks, I cbet $2.25 and he calls.

(Pot = ~$8.50)
Turn 4 (puts a FD on board)
He checks, I check behind planning to call most rivs or bet when he checks.


(Pot = ~$8.50)
River is a J, putting a flush on the board. he leads for $5.50, and I raise to $12. He jams all in. I fold.


I almost flatted the river, but I figured he has a lot of 99, TT, and QQ here, which he plays exactly this way, and will likely make a crying call with (cause Blow-vada). Plus I block AJ, and it's tough for him to have Jx in general with three J's on the board. But I also don't think he's going to 3b the river with TT or QQ here, so it seems a clear fold once he jams, right?

What were stack sizes? I don't think I'm ever folding there. He rarely has Jx, but 44 and 88 are more possible because of the small 3-bet (why the small 3-bet?).

I don't think I'm ever folding there. I'd have to have a read, there are way too many hands someone can over value there. You have to remember something super important. Just because you can think through a hand, doesn't mean your opponent can. He can easily be looking at TT/QQ/KK and be thinking I have the nuts.

Scourrge said:

25nl Zone on Bovada, so no reads.

MP opens 75c, I 3b to $2 with AA in CO, he flats. we were about 200bb deep to start the hand.

(Pot = ~ $4.20)
Flop J J 8 r
He checks, I cbet $2.25 and he calls.

(Pot = ~$8.50)
Turn 4 (puts a FD on board)
He checks, I check behind planning to call most rivs or bet when he checks.

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Why you gave him a free card???? And if you played it like this then why to raise paired board OTR???? What i like about your play is disciplined fold OTR , nothing more

Scourrge said:

25nl Zone on Bovada, so no reads.

MP opens 75c, I 3b to $2 with AA in CO, he flats. we were about 200bb deep to start the hand.

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His jam is just massive. I don't think he can ever over-value 44 or 88 there, and TT is a stretch. I think QQ and TT- are more likely to get scared and just call (which was the whole reason I raised the river).

I 3bet small b/c I get so many folds with regular sized 3bets, and I'm fairly confident in my postflop ability (at least against most opponents on Bovada). In any case, it was 8 bb vs. my standard 9 bb, so not that tiny IP imho.

And the problem is that if he is staying in with a hand like 44 against the 3b, he's def never EVER folding AJ, KJ, QJ, JT in suited combos, and probably not many offsuit combos either. And again, his raise is MASSIVE. I had to call $27 more into only about $60. Surprisingly bad price.

Speedexas said:

Why you gave him a free card???? And if you played it like this then why to raise paired board OTR???? What i like about your play is disciplined fold OTR , nothing more

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Because barreling 2 streets in a row makes it harder for him to call down with air and 2nd pair-type PP's that might stab or try to value bet the river. And I raise river because QQ, TT, and 99 are very likely holdings that he will have trouble letting go of, but I didn't think he would 3bet.

Scourrge said:

Flop J J 8 r
He checks, I cbet $2.25 and he calls.

(Pot = ~$8.50)
Turn 4 (puts a FD on board)
He checks, I check behind planning to call most rivs or bet when he checks.


(Pot = ~$8.50)
River is a J, putting a flush on the board. he leads for $5.50, and I raise to $12. He jams all in. I fold.

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OMG. I just saw it. You had JJJAA OTR, how you could folded river?????????? Even if he has A J or KJs like 5% of the time its still a call for 200bb.

Or you made a mistake when posting a hand????

It wasn't a mistake. His range is pretty narrow when he takes this line and bet/3bets the river. Whether it's correct to call or not depends on what we think he does with a very few specific combos.

Scourrge said:

It wasn't a mistake. His range is pretty narrow when he takes this line and bet/3bets the river. Whether it's correct to call or not depends on what we think he does with a very few specific combos.

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But then you understand that only J beats you and after you check the turn he would probably JAM with QQ there.

I'm not folding.

I would have continued to bet on the turn considering the FD.

Your check on the turn screams weakness therefore he probably doubts you have AA or KK.

Maybe he has KJ, AJ but I would call the river as played as only a J beats you.

If he has you beat, just imagine Lady Luck is your pillow and beat the crap out of that pillow.

Speedexas said:

But then you understand that only J beats you and after you check the turn he would probably JAM with QQ there.

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I'm not sure why you keep talking to me like I'm an idiot, but please go ahead and stop doing that. It's not appreciated.

The bold is an assumption that I didn't agree with at the time I played the hand. Keep in mind I had something like 15 seconds to make a decision on each street.

The main thing I didn't take into account while at the table was how weak my turn check looked. I WAS doing it for deception, but then kind of neglected the amount of weakness it would convey to most opponents.

Thanks for your responses guys.

I think the turn check is perfect. Even though it PUTS a FD out there, he's not flush hunting the majority of the time given a rainbow flop. I'm less worried about runner/runner than the J.

Another reason the turn check is good is because it does disguise hand strength and you will get more calls and leads into you (overall) once you have made the "mandatory" continuation bet and then take the gas off on the turn.

Given only a J beats you on the river and you're playing this hand blindly (basically no read on opponent), I make the call. I can see a random spazzing with any TT+ hand here, especially given the turn check.

Scourrge said:

I'm not sure why you keep talking to me like I'm an idiot, but please go ahead and stop doing that. It's not appreciated.

The bold is an assumption that I didn't agree with at the time I played the hand. Keep in mind I had something like 15 seconds to make a decision on each street.

The main thing I didn't take into account while at the table was how weak my turn check looked. I WAS doing it for deception, but then kind of neglected the amount of weakness it would convey to most opponents.

Thanks for your responses guys.

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Sorry , i never meant to insult you or anything , you are not an idiot , its just that i dont get your fold there and i wanted to know the main reason why you fold top FH there.

Scourrge said:

His jam is just massive. I don't think he can ever over-value 44 or 88 there, and TT is a stretch. I think QQ and TT- are more likely to get scared and just call (which was the whole reason I raised the river).

I 3bet small b/c I get so many folds with regular sized 3bets, and I'm fairly confident in my postflop ability (at least against most opponents on Bovada). In any case, it was 8 bb vs. my standard 9 bb, so not that tiny IP imho.

And the problem is that if he is staying in with a hand like 44 against the 3b, he's def never EVER folding AJ, KJ, QJ, JT in suited combos, and probably not many offsuit combos either. And again, his raise is MASSIVE. I had to call $27 more into only about $60. Surprisingly bad price.

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Ok, I missed the 200bbs, that's why I asked about stack size. I mean, ya that makes it closer for sure. My comment about 44/88 was just that I meant those hands are more likely than Jx, not that he's jamming them of course though.

Any ways, it just comes down to how often you think an opponent at your stakes will over value KK/QQ type hands here, and you have to add in a small % of bluffs (even though most people won't bluff this deep, it still has to make it a % consideration). It's close for sure, and based on my super brief testing on zone 25nl, I'm probably calling. I played maybe ~300 hands on there when testing the converter, and I saw some pretty stupid stuff. Like...

I ISO'd QQ pre-flop against a limper and got a call from the BB. Effective stacks were about 125bbs, and the flop came T47 with 2 spades and the BB open jammed the flop, I called. He turned over 88. Yes, he jammed over 120bbs into a ~10BB pot.

Imo the example is a bit irrelevant to this particular hand, simply b/c people spaz out early in a hand much more often than late, not to mention the sheer amount of info we gather throughout this hand is much more (as opposed to - he just jammed the flop).

But I definitely agree I have to go with it b/c of my check on the turn. He's just never even thinking of putting me on AA or KK here, so he's probably comfortable with QQ at the minimum.

Speedexas said:

Why you gave him a free card???? And if you played it like this then why to raise paired board OTR???? What i like about your play is disciplined fold OTR , nothing more

Click to expand...

Yes I would raise on turn by more than 3bets to make him realise I have strong hand and than if I would strenghten my hand on river and he would be still playing I would think again and either I would push through or just check... Like Speedexas wrote it is never good if when you play aggressive and than go milder ... because it looks like : Um I was expecting to get something and I got a high card only there...

I have only one question. Is FH versus river quads a cooler?
If yes, how often could this happen? IMO it is a call no matter what.

Snakmacher said:

Yes I would raise on turn by more than 3bets to make him realise I have strong hand and than if I would strenghten my hand on river and he would be still playing I would think again and either I would push through or just check... Like Speedexas wrote it is never good if when you play aggressive and than go milder ... because it looks like : Um I was expecting to get something and I got a high card only there...

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++++++++++++++++

Scourrge said:

Imo the example is a bit irrelevant to this particular hand, simply b/c people spaz out early in a hand much more often than late, not to mention the sheer amount of info we gather throughout this hand is much more (as opposed to - he just jammed the flop).

But I definitely agree I have to go with it b/c of my check on the turn. He's just never even thinking of putting me on AA or KK here, so he's probably comfortable with QQ at the minimum.

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I think it applies simply because I'm pointing out that people will do some pretty dumb things fairly deep on there because it's 25nl and people aren't really looking at it as much money. That's my only point.

Heh. Fair enough. Anyway I'm abandoning ship on this one since some (not all) replies are devolving here. Thanks to those who gave solid input.

Late to the party, but interesting hand. FWIW, I probs call... but folding can't be too bad can it.

With that hand, and with so many out to came to help improve his hand, i would never, never give him a free card. Only if i had a hand that could beat his draw. Besides that i would make him pay and i mean pay big for his draw. And that fold, with so many chips in the pot, you never should fold. If you knew that you had a chance to lose that hand, you should keep the pot to the minimum to lose the minimum, and not put so many chips to give him a free card.

3bet bigger man, especially because we are deep, cbet bigger also imo, im normally tripling this board especially given the runout, as played its hard to fold

You are clearly a strong player, most likely better than me although i do fairly well at 25nlh, Can I point out a few things...
"I check behind planning to call most rivs or bet when he check" But then you failed to stick to your plan and raised and reopened the betting!! I know you explained your thinking but you played for deceptive weakness and got the action you craved....and then you fold top full house when he responds to the weakness shown on the turn!!
You weren't worried about him having a J before you raised the river, imo rightly so. How can he have a J? you said yourself you block AJ and would he have called a rr out of pos wth KJ QJ or J10? maybe if suited, but imo much more likely to have a pair. 88s check call until you check then bets the river. 99s 10s call with the gutshot and possibility that you just have big slick then they make a full on the river.
There are so many other full houses you can beat and what can he think you have as played? After your turn check he probably thinks his mid pair full house is good enough to stack off.
In my humble opin a call.

Scourrge said:

25nl Zone on Bovada, so no reads.

MP opens 75c, I 3b to $2 with AA in CO, he flats. we were about 200bb deep to start the hand.

(Pot = ~ $4.20)
Flop J J 8 r
He checks, I cbet $2.25 and he calls.

(Pot = ~$8.50)
Turn 4 (puts a FD on board)
He checks, I check behind planning to call most rivs or bet when he checks.


(Pot = ~$8.50)
River is a J, putting a flush on the board. he leads for $5.50, and I raise to $12. He jams all in. I fold.


I almost flatted the river, but I figured he has a lot of 99, TT, and QQ here, which he plays exactly this way, and will likely make a crying call with (cause Blow-vada). Plus I block AJ, and it's tough for him to have Jx in general with three J's on the board. But I also don't think he's going to 3b the river with TT or QQ here, so it seems a clear fold once he jams, right?

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I'm not that great of a cash game player and I'm sure you are better than me, however I can beat $25NL zone. So fwiw here is my opinion on the hand.

Preflop.
I 3-bet to $2.5 pre. imo 3-betting to $2 vs $2.5 doesn't change what they fold that much and the extra $.5 is magnified a lot if you are getting 3 streets of value and your bet sizing is dependent on the pot size.
Flop and Turn.
On the flop and the turn I probably play it the same way. Betting the turn is probably the more profitable line to take, but I really don't like playing large pots with an over pair on a board like that.
River.
On the river I call 100% The fact that he is 200BB deep makes it more likely he is a decent player, but tbh I would hardly be surprised to see the villain show up with something as bad as an 8 here. Just about everyone in 25NL zone will call the flop with an 8 and being the turn checked through on the river I can see some people putting you on AK or something like that. Obviously some people are going to be folding all the 8's in their range preflop, but some won't.

I really think you might give people in zone a little to much credit for knowing what they are doing because a lot of them are just gamblers.
If this was played during the week (M/T/W/T) a fold might be ok, but if it was during the weekend I would definitely call.

As always that is just what I would have done given the little bit I know about poker, if you or someone else has a different opinion or sees a flaw in my thought process I would really appreciate it if you would point it out.
Best of luck

EDIT: when I said some people would put you on AK I was meaning up until the 3-bet on the river your hand would look to a lot of people as AK