$25 NLHE 6-max: Turn trips as aggressor

IPlay

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PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 99 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 1)
BB: 134.4 BB (VPIP: 42.86, PFR: 3.57, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 28)
UTG: 125.8 BB (VPIP: 40.91, PFR: 18.18, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 22)
Hero (MP): 120.96 BB
CO: 104.4 BB (VPIP: 23.08, PFR: 15.38, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 14)
BTN: 110.44 BB (VPIP: 23.44, PFR: 17.19, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, Hands: 64)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has J:club: A:club:

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (9.4 BB, 3 players) Q:spade: 7:heart: J:diamond:
BB checks, Hero bets 5.68 BB, BTN calls 5.68 BB, fold

Turn: (20.76 BB, 2 players) J:spade:
Hero ???

Is this a good card to check and let villain bet? Betting just folds out his air he might bet with and he calls with value hands that he would probably bet when checked to anyway AQ ,KQ, QJ, J10, J9s.
 
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MinhANguyen

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OTF I like a check-call. We are either way ahead or way behind here. Don't think we're getting bluffed off our hand often enough on a wet board that smacks our raising range and the BB's calling range by the BTN. If they do take a stab, I'd imagine that the BTN or BB would be one and done with their stabs on a draw/weak J.

As played, just keep betting. Check-raising overreps our hand, and if we GII here, we shouldn't be expecting to win all the time. KJ, J10, and J9 should be folding to a check-raise OTT from the PFR unless they have a solid read you're spewing, but people at 25NL do tend to overvalue their hands a lot. I once double check-raised A8 from the BB on a 10886x board OTF and OTT, and got his stack OTR. He showed me 108s.

When you get called on this board, it's unlikely that the BTN has air. He probably has some type of straight draw, pair + draw, or a Q that is willing to pay off a turn bet. I think people give you credit for c-betting this type of board and aren't going to float with air, especially with the BB, whose calling range hits this board, is still to act behind him. He is definitely checking back his draws here because if you check here, it looks like you have a scared queen. I don't think most people are willing to barrel off half their stack on a draw to get you to fold a TPTK type of hand. And he might not bet his Q if he has just a decent kicker because he should be scared of kicker issues and the Jack. So I'd just bet bet bet, and hope he doesn't raise :). Probably 65-75% PSB OTT and OTR is fine; don't think a lone Q is going to pay off two huge bets OTT and OTR. A raise would put us in a tough spot, and you'd have to go with your read.
 
IPlay

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You don't think the button ever floats with hands like A10s, K10, 109 that float flop that won't call a bet on a paired board but will use this J as a scare card and bet it? Checking keeps those bluffs in his range and he still bets KQ, AQ and any Jx hands for value which are the hands I am aiming to get value from anyway. Also, I have ran into a lot of trouble playing hands like this as a bluff catcher OOP in MW pots so I try to play a little more straightforward in multiway pots as a result and cbet this flop for value.

Also I cbet 4/5 hands while villain was at table and he has called flop and folded turn previously.

So I don't think a draw is calling turn, I don't think I am getting 3 streets out of a a Q worse then KQ and I am coolering him if he has a worse J. Also, didn't play on x/raising the turn. Checking/calling can't be too bad and may be more EV then betting?
 
c9h13no3

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You have a fold to cbet stat?

Your flop bet was a little smallish, so it's going to be hard to bet/bet/bet it in anyways. I'm good with inducing a bluff, and the J hits his calling range pretty hard (so maybe he's smart enough to rep trips?).
 
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Most people shouldn't be bluffing at this board texture after you c-betted multiway if they have any decent hand reading skill. By c-betting, you're repping a Q, J, or a draw yourself. Don't think you're going to go away by just a turn bet, and a lot of people don't have the guts at these stakes to pull off a big turn bluff and river bluff.

K10 and 109 are much more likely to call another bet than make a bet. And 25NL cash game players are pretty passive, so they probably actually check back AQ/KQ/Q10 here. Just bet bet bet. You get so much more value this value from stubborn Qx that won't fold the river, all Jx, and all draws. You will see a lot of people check behind on this board texture unless they have a J, unless they are aggro and spewy.
 
IPlay

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I think if you are villain in this spot on the button and PFR just checked too you and you have a draw, you are making a mistake by not betting. I'm also not repping a Q, J or draw by cbetting here, people CBet a lot on Bovada with hands that give up on turns. AK, A10, AQ, AJ, 109s, K10s, Axs random 88-1010 sometimes that we don't want to x/fold on flop. This is kind of one of those flops that hits the PFRs range so I am cbetting here often.
 
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That's probably true, as you can get him to fold a few hands like AK. Also build a nicer pot when you do hit. We are never folding Qx/Jx, so people are probably less likely to take a stab here with air. We're only really folding stuff like AK and stuff we shouldn't have c-bet with in the first place. Not sure if 109s and K10s are folding unless you bomb the turn; even then, they still might want to take a card off. 88-1010 really shouldn't be c-betting this board. This board hits a BTN/BB flatting range really hard, and they are almost always calling here. Any broadway like AK/AJ with a gs + overcard are always called, any Q, any J, any draw, etc.

But anyway, the players at these stakes are generally on the more passive side. Only hand that is really betting here is AQ/Jx/maybe a draw if Villain is more on the aggro side. A lot of players are going to check back a weak Qx and their draws at these stakes. So betting is just the much better option here. At 25NL people's calling ranges are much much wider than their betting range, so take advantage of that. Checking with the intent of check-raising is fine, but if you think they'll let go of a Q because check-raising does look really strong, then bet bet bet is much superior. Not sure if people are willing to stack off with AQ/KQ here to a check-raise OTT and a river bomb.
 
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IPlay

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PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 99 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
BB: 134.4 BB (VPIP: 42.86, PFR: 3.57, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 28)
UTG: 125.8 BB (VPIP: 40.91, PFR: 18.18, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 22)
Hero (MP): 120.96 BB
CO: 104.4 BB (VPIP: 23.08, PFR: 15.38, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 14)
BTN: 110.44 BB (VPIP: 23.44, PFR: 17.19, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, Hands: 64)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has J:club: A:club:

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (9.4 BB, 3 players) Q:spade: 7:heart: J:diamond:
BB checks, Hero bets 5.68 BB, BTN calls 5.68 BB, fold

Turn: (20.76 BB, 2 players) J:spade:
Hero checks, BTN bets 12.36 BB, Hero calls 12.36 BB

River: (45.48 BB, 2 players) 8:heart:
Hero checks, BTN bets 25.72 BB, Hero raises to 99.92 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 63.68 BB and is all-in

Villain called with KJ

Still not sure if I should just barrel though, I think checking is best and I think that is without being results orientated. I think a lot of Qx is only getting 2 streets of value anyway and while Jx can get 3 streets if I barrel, if I check he will also bet and allow me to x/jam rivers for stacks. Checking also lets bluffs bet and I really don't think draws are calling turn bets(Nor do I think they are betting every time) on paired boards when I barrel and some of their outs could be very dirty
 
Thinker_145

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No I think you played the hand in the most optimal way.
 
Aces2w1n

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double barrelling is best I think, because if villain has a Q he will definetly make calling mistakes.

If we check/raise like above said it makes us look very strong and it's just not worth it for us and this line will lead us into fullhouses and opponents will fold out worse hands.

So betting is fine on turn.
Not sure what happens if villain shoves us though.

two mins later I came up with the answer! u call because our villain didn't 3bet us meaning it diminishes chances we run into boats. So we just value all streets and call our opponent down and run into bluffs :)
 
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Yeah, I think triple barreling was optimal here. It's really hard for him to have the last Jack in the deck, and by betting they're going to make more calling mistakes. KQ/AQ are probably paying off three barrels at this limit, although they should realize they're only beating a stone cold-bluff on the river. And if he had a J, like he did here, the players here are probably bad enough here to raise with KJ so you probably would have gotten his stack anyway.

Draws don't always bet the turn, as a good amount of players are passive. And KQ/Q10 are always checking back river, so you lose a lot of value there.

Check-raising is too strong of a line, and will fold out all Qx unless Villain is a complete fish. We're only getting realistically called by KJ/J10s/J9s and boats when we check-raise.
 
IPlay

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Yeah, I think triple barreling was optimal here. It's really hard for him to have the last Jack in the deck, and by betting they're going to make more calling mistakes. KQ/AQ are probably paying off three barrels at this limit, although they should realize they're only beating a stone cold-bluff on the river. And if he had a J, like he did here, the players here are probably bad enough here to raise with KJ so you probably would have gotten his stack anyway.

Draws don't always bet the turn, as a good amount of players are passive. And KQ/Q10 are always checking back river, so you lose a lot of value there.

Check-raising is too strong of a line, and will fold out all Qx unless Villain is a complete fish. We're only getting realistically called by KJ/J10s/J9s and boats when we check-raise.

He is a solid reg on the button, I think you can say he is betting draws when I check on turn. I also disagree that they are checking back AQ and KQ when checked to on turn. I don't mind if they check back KQ/Q10 on river as long as I get more value from his Jx and his bluffs and don't lose any value from his AQ. Against a 33/12 I probably bet/bet/bet but not against this guy.
 
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I didnt say KQ and AQ check turn; I said they would check behind on the river. And if he has a draw OTT, why not bet yourself? He's going to call anyway, and I do not think he is a solid reg. A solid reg is not calling a readless MP open with KJo and calling a check-raise all-in on the river with KJ. A solid reg would only do either of those if he believed you're opening so wide that flatting your MP open would be profitable and would only call your CRAI if you were a maniac. He basically beats no hands OTR with KJ when you check-call the turn and check-raise the river.

The majority of the time, since there are two jacks and you have a jack yourself, he's not going to have many jacks in his range due to blockers. Most of the time he's going to have Qx here that's going to get sticky, so bet/bet/bet imo is the more profitable line to take. And you are losing value to AQ on the river by checking here if he is a solid reg, which I don't think he is. When you check-call the turn, you can reasonably have Aces, Kings, AQ, trip Jacks, so a river bet is way too thin. He's not getting many worse hands to call OTR if he fires with AQ.

Most players at these stakes aren't really capable of bluffing big OTT/OTR after you've shown a lot of strength by check-calling turn/double barreling, so you dont really get much value from bluffs. I have a decent hand sample, and 25NL is really passive. Can't say the same about 50NL though; I do a lot more bluff-catching there.
 
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IPlay

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I didnt say KQ and AQ check turn; I said they would check behind on the river. And if he has a draw OTT, why not bet yourself? He's going to call anyway, and I do not think he is a solid reg. A solid reg is not calling a readless MP open with KJo and calling a check-raise all-in on the river with KJ.

You are profiling him off a hand we didn't play yet. It is kind of unfair, look at his stats and tell me those are not reg stats. I don't get why you think a player like this is going to be chasing draws on paired boards after I barrel two streets and you think he is going to call a triple barrel with less then AQ. You are making too many assumptions based off hindsight and not off the information we had during the hand. Regs are not calling on the button with intentions of playing fit or fold poker post flop. If button was a fish, I would have played the hand differently.
 
Thinker_145

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Okay I initially said you played the hand most optimally but I seemed to have misread the actual hand. I would certainly bet the turn for reasons stated above.

Not sure about the river though, I think I'll like a check raise there for precisely the same sort of cooler hand that happened here. If you bet the river as well KJ may or may not raise you. But just because a player may only call with KJ in the end doesn't mean that they would fold to a check raise all in.

The only hand you really miss out on by checking the river is AQ but the Villain might actually go for thin value with it.
 
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