$25 NLHE 6-max: TPTK facing re-raise OTF

BvBrMTW

BvBrMTW

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So yea, no stats on villain, and he raises here while I have TPTK.
Earlyer today I posted a thread about my terrible session, and some people noticed I bring myself in a lot of trouble with big pairs,
So with that in my hand I played this hand., Can I call the raise? and if I call, there's a big chance he bets the turn, do I want to call otf and fold the turn?

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Button ($25)
SB ($39.45)
Hero (BB) ($26.28)
UTG ($7.75)
MP ($26.72)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q
club.gif
, A
heart.gif

2 folds, Button bets $0.75, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2, Button calls $1.25

Flop: ($4.10) 10
diamond.gif
, A
diamond.gif
, 4
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $3, Button raises to $7.50, hero ??
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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i call here and re-evaluate on the turn according to what opens and what villain does. mostly what he does.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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You have TP, 2nd kicker. Not TPTK (top pair, top kicker).

3-betting here is borderline but fine, as long as villain is reggy enough to steal fairly wide, and thus defend against resteals. Button has a full stack, so it's fair enough with the information we've got. I'd prefer to see 20/18 preflop stats, preferably with a steal percentage or something though. The problem is that by 3-betting, you're essentially committing yourself to put the chips in if an A or Q flops.

His raise is so small, I probably just click it back and call a shove. Calling and check/shoving the turn is viable too, but I think the CIB causes villains to spazz more often.
 
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ScottishMatt

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Bigger pre. I make it 2.50 at least. As for postflop play, just reread c9's post. That pretty much covers it.
 
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baudib1

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All of the lines c9 suggested are fine but I'd add an alternative: Call and shove a non-diamond turn.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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All of the lines c9 suggested are fine but I'd add an alternative: Call and shove a non-diamond turn.
If we think villain's range is Ax and draws with 4-12 outs, then shouldn't our line look to max out the money the draws like KQo put in the pot? Donk shoving the turn just gets these weaker draws/rebluff hands to fold.
 
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baudib1

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He's not raising KQo on the flop.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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He's not raising KQo on the flop.
Well villain reps pretty much nothing when he raises this flop. He might 4-bet AK, AA, so his value range here is like AJ+ and TT (with AJ & AQ being questionable). His raise size also seems bluffy. And his flush draws really make up a small range (3 combos really, KQ, KJ, QJ). So he's either value cutting himself with AJ or AQ, has TT/44, or is turning some part of his range into a bluff.

Also, raising KQo on a board like this is a pretty decent bluff. Hero will be 3-betting in this spot really wide, and will fold roughly 50%-60% of his range that cbets here. Plus 4 outs, and the diamonds are good turn cards to bluff.
 
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baudib1

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BTN vs. BB, BTN will have a ton more flush draws here than broadways. I mean, he's going to have almost all combos of 4dxd and Kdxd.
 
Deco

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I 3bet larger, I ship the flop.
Too many draws to fold. AJx would have me more scared ATo isn't nearly as likely as AJo although with our small sizing will see it from time to time and of course see ATs,TT,44 but not often enough to not shove.
 
acky100

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i 3bet larger and if this guy is a reg im nowhere near as happy at shipping the flop as you guys, without reads its hard to say but regs arent getting in AJ this way usually, and as usual everyone severely overestimating the amount of flush draws in a standard villains range here (the ones he does have we're usually flipping with)

Gonna be lol at arrannit but i honestly think getting it in vs a reg here is very often a bad play, whether i find a fold in game im not sure, hard to say without reads that he could ever bluff here.

edit: ACTUALLY F THE HATERS, IM FOLDING VS AN UNKNOWN FULL STACK HERE (unless he's playing 1 table in which ill jam)
 
forsakenone

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if you 3bet preflop you have to get it in on this flop, why else would you 3bet? because I assume you did it for value, therefor you got almost best result on flop so stick with your hand or next time don't 3bet this spot if you have doubts stacking off with top pair.

personally vs an unknown I would just call preflop and most likely either raise the flop myself, or just call him down.
 
acky100

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if you 3bet preflop you have to get it in on this flop, why else would you 3bet? because I assume you did it for value, therefor you got almost best result on flop so stick with your hand or next time don't 3bet this spot if you have doubts stacking off with top pair.

personally vs an unknown I would just call preflop and most likely either raise the flop myself, or just call him down.

Um this is quite wrong, just because you 3bet means you have to get it in every time you hit top pair? thats quite stupid when you think about it, if villains range for raise getting it in has us crushed here then we dont get it in, doesn't mean we can't 3bet AQ here (which im doing like 99% of the time) because there are going to be many other times where we dont get raised and we get value from worse aces, draws and Tx that just call.
 
Deco

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Nitty preflop range
{ATs, TT} = 5 combos
{KQ,QJs,KJs,Jd9d,Qd9d,Kd9d} = 27combos

Fishy preflop range
{AT,TT,44, A4s} = 14combos
{KQ,QJ,KJ,4d5d-8d9d, Jd9d,Qd9d,Kd9d, 3d5d-7d9d} = 61 combos

Naturally villain will not raise all these draws but we only need him to raise a tiny fraction of them to not fold. Also the fishy preflop range is madly conservative I'd expect more sooted hands, some Tx and some air.
 
Deco

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Um this is quite wrong, just because you 3bet means you have to get it in every time you hit top pair? thats quite stupid when you think about it, if villains range for raise getting it in has us crushed here then we dont get it in, doesn't mean we can't 3bet AQ here (which im doing like 99% of the time) because there are going to be many other times where we dont get raised and we get value from worse aces, draws and Tx that just call.

+1
 
Jblocher1

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Is anybody else concerned about him having AT here? I feel like it is within his range here. the fact he didnt 3 bet pre shows he doesn't have AK or AQ most likely. As I see it. AJ and AT are hand he most likely has. If it's AJ u got him right where u want him. If it's AT ur screwed. So the line I would take here. Is Call his re raise, And if he slows down on the turn and checks, I jam into him because he's either on a draw or the worse ace. If he doesn't check and Jams into u, I would sigh and put my cards into the muck because a draw either got there or he does in fact have AT.
 
acky100

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Nitty preflop range
{ATs, TT} = 5 combos
{KQ,QJs,KJs,Jd9d,Qd9d,Kd9d} = 27combos

Fishy preflop range
{AT,TT,44, A4s} = 14combos
{KQ,QJ,KJ,4d5d-8d9d, Jd9d,Qd9d,Kd9d, 3d5d-7d9d} = 61 combos

Naturally villain will not raise all these draws but we only need him to raise a tiny fraction of them to not fold. Also the fishy preflop range is madly conservative I'd expect more sooted hands, some Tx and some air.

This is on the right tracks i think (the nitty range)

We are facing a full stacked player, no history so we have to play vs the average full stacked 25nl player, which if you take a look or have played these games you would agree that the chances are that this is just another reg (most likely ABC and somewhat weak)

So we HAVE to pretty much play our hand vs that stereotype as its going to be the best average assumption, and therefore the most EV assumption.

So i think your nitty range is quite good, i think 25nl regs probably dont call with stuff like K9s Q9s as much as they should, and i honestly don't think its fair at all to include KQ into that analysis cause you are basically saying he raises the flop with 16 combo's that are only gutters, thats going to wildly skew the result you get and make you think its a fist pump get it in. I'm 99% sure the average 25 reg will also call all pairs more than he won't so we should not completely discount bottom set.

Yeah people can occasionally raise here with a gutter or something, but i'm folding because i really don't think on average this is profitable or even close to it. It really makes no sense to raise get in with AJ and you'd have to be a pretty awful reg to take that line, people are just rightly so going to call the flop with that hand on average.
 
Deco

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We are facing a full stacked player, no history so we have to play vs the average full stacked 25nl player, which if you take a look or have played these games you would agree that the chances are that this is just another reg (most likely ABC and somewhat weak)

So we HAVE to pretty much play our hand vs that stereotype as its going to be the best average assumption, and therefore the most EV assumption.

What unknowns look like depend on a few more factors other than stack size imo.

*If they have auto-reload on.
*How often hero plays and the size of the site.
*Stakes.
*How many tables they play.

I have my tablescanner set to sit me down with any unknown playing 2 tables or less. The overwhelming majority of the time they end up being fish mostly because I play often enough that I have >0 hands on all the regs.
 
BvBrMTW

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Is anybody else concerned about him having AT here? I feel like it is within his range here. the fact he didnt 3 bet pre shows he doesn't have AK or AQ most likely. As I see it. AJ and AT are hand he most likely has. If it's AJ u got him right where u want him. If it's AT ur screwed. So the line I would take here. Is Call his re raise, And if he slows down on the turn and checks, I jam into him because he's either on a draw or the worse ace. If he doesn't check and Jams into u, I would sigh and put my cards into the muck because a draw either got there or he does in fact have AT.

I 3-bet pre, and flatting 3-bets IP with ak/aq is very standard at 25nl.

I did actually follow the line above, I called and when he bet 9$ on the turn I just folded. But Tbh I hate this line.

Looking back I think both CIB and folding are ok I guess.. right?
 
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