$25 NLHE 6-max: TPTK against ATC

nabmom

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Very early in a session against a very loose player. So far I've seen him limp and then call a raise with: T7s, 98o, 87o and 3bet from the blinds against a steal with 44. To be honest, at the time I played this hand I wasn't really trying to interpret his actions and what range this meant he had. I was just thinking "this is a crazy guy who could have any two cards and will probably play hands that are dominated by my beautiful AK".

How do you interpret his PF and flop bets?

How good/bad is my play?



Merge - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: $21.29
CO: $9.28 Stats: 80/20 over 11 hands
BTN: $10.00
Hero (SB): $10.00
BB: $11.15
UTG: $10.50

Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has K A

fold, fold, CO calls $0.10, fold, Hero raises to $0.40, fold, CO raises to $0.70, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.50, 2 players) T 6 A
Hero checks, CO bets $0.80, Hero raises to $1.60, CO raises to $2.40, Hero raises to $9.30 and is all-in, CO calls $6.18 and is all-in

Turn: ($18.66, 2 players) 9

River: ($18.66, 2 players) Q
 
C

CaptainKout

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Well I don't see 66 raising often. A10(probably not 3betting either), 10's, and Aces are only things you're worried about. He's loose crazy so he might be willing to stack off with Aq or Aj enough for me to get it in especially if he's got the Ahearts. I would 4bet his crazyazz preflop tho.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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4 bet pre imo, I like the flop play aside from the min raise.

if you're gonna raise, make it for more.
 
micromachine

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11 hands isn't enough to say he is very loose.

His silly 3bet suggests that he's a fish though. I would 4bet PF to ~$2.20.

As played I'm happy to get it all in OTF.
 
Deco

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4bet the flop. It's standard with AK anyway but especially so when villain makes such a dodgy looking open limp raise.
 
nabmom

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4bet the flop. It's standard with AK anyway but especially so when villain makes such a dodgy looking open limp raise.

Is 4-betting standard with AK? At micros? Anywhere?

It's probably a topic for its own thread, but AK is tricky for me to play well. I'd be more inclined to 4-bet when it's suited.

With that, just looked at my own stats:
This month I've had AK 148 times. Overall am losing really big with them (losing more with AKs than with AKo).
When I expand to this year so far, I've had AK 686 times. Still losing.
 
MediaBLITZ

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Okay so he may be loose but the critical information for me is what he's specifically doing on the flops. It looks like he loves connectors and has a very loose interpretation of them. There is an off chance he actually might know what he's doing in his loose aggro approach and is okay with the wild swings his stack will go through playing this way. If that is the case he knows he can felt a TPTK player when he hits hard because his credibility bank is empty. Will he go to the flop - try to take it down with a c-bet and clear out when he can't or is he such a donk he is showing down with like 2nd pair or a busted draw?

But even if that is not the case, let's look at what you did - you made TPTK a hand worthy of your entire stack (about 110 BB). In a vacuum, do you really think it's worth that much?

And you did it with a flush draw, Broadway draw board.

Now I know there are players who are thrilled to get it all in here (micromachine for example) and that's okay - but if you are losing money with AK this could be something worth looking at. Throwing pot control out the window with only one pair is pretty damn bold.

What was your hunch/expectation when you shoved? Did you think he would fold or call? Or better expressed with what were you going after with a shove? Were you just fed up with his shenanigans?

Here's what I am thinking - based on your info this guy did nothing out of his character. But I wonder if you might have and he pushed you into it. Ended up more playing all his other hands you saw and didn't really just play the hand that was sitting in front of you. Like you saw what he was doing and were chomping at the bit to get in a hand with him, and get heads up so you could cash in. Then your nice AK hits and cha-ching - off to the races? Does that sound like a possibility?
 
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thebigdawg

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I would have raised more on the flop, around $2.20 or $2.30. Other than that I would have did everything the same (don't know if thats good though :eek: )
 
A

Aldito

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4bet pre vs this idiot

80/20 even if it is only 11 hands, along with his 92bb donk stack and min3bet pre = DONK
 
A

Aldito

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Is 4-betting standard with AK? At micros? Anywhere?

It's probably a topic for its own thread, but AK is tricky for me to play well. I'd be more inclined to 4-bet when it's suited.

With that, just looked at my own stats:
This month I've had AK 148 times. Overall am losing really big with them (losing more with AKs than with AKo).
When I expand to this year so far, I've had AK 686 times. Still losing.

If youre losing this much with AK I would suggest moving back down to at least 10nl.
 
nabmom

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MediaBLITZ,
Thank you for such a well thought out analysis. I think you hit the nail on the head with this one!

But even if that is not the case, let's look at what you did - you made TPTK a hand worthy of your entire stack (about 110 BB). In a vacuum, do you really think it's worth that much?
Don't know that I'm playing so much in a vacuum, because any hand that I play is (usually) player-dependent. I do know that TPTK usually isn't good against a River bet by a loose/passive player. But in this case, I assumed he'd shove with a range that I mostly beat and playing his draws too aggressively.

Now I know there are players who are thrilled to get it all in here (micromachine for example) and that's okay - but if you are losing money with AK this could be something worth looking at. Throwing pot control out the window with only one pair is pretty damn stupid and a great way to lose money.
FYP

What was your hunch/expectation when you shoved? Did you think he would fold or call? Or better expressed with what were you going after with a shove? Were you just fed up with his shenanigans?
I really like your ability to analyze what's really going on here. Mostly hoping to exploit his shenanigans. Hoping he'd call with worse single pair, or with a draw that he'd miss. Because, dammit, I want to win with AK!

Here's what I am thinking - based on your info this guy did nothing out of his character. But I wonder if you might have and he pushed you into it. Ended up more playing all his other hands you saw and didn't really just play the hand that was sitting in front of you. Like you saw what he was doing and were chomping at the bit to get in a hand with him, and get heads up so you could cash in. Then your nice AK hits and cha-ching - off to the races? Does that sound like a possibility?
BINGO.

I keep thinking that I don't really tilt so my issue isn't with the mental game, it's with learning more about playing SCs or how to 3bet better. How will I get it stuck in my head that I should be mainly playing straight-forward poker and be patient??
 
A

Aldito

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Okay so he may be loose but the critical information for me is what he's specifically doing on the flops. It looks like he loves connectors and has a very loose interpretation of them. There is an off chance he actually might know what he's doing in his loose aggro approach and is okay with the wild swings his stack will go through playing this way. If that is the case he knows he can felt a TPTK player when he hits hard because his credibility bank is empty. Will he go to the flop - try to take it down with a c-bet and clear out when he can't or is he such a donk he is showing down with like 2nd pair or a busted draw?

But even if that is not the case, let's look at what you did - you made TPTK a hand worthy of your entire stack (about 110 BB). In a vacuum, do you really think it's worth that much?

And you did it with a flush draw, Broadway draw board.

Now I know there are players who are thrilled to get it all in here (micromachine for example) and that's okay - but if you are losing money with AK this could be something worth looking at. Throwing pot control out the window with only one pair is pretty damn bold.

What was your hunch/expectation when you shoved? Did you think he would fold or call? Or better expressed with what were you going after with a shove? Were you just fed up with his shenanigans?

Here's what I am thinking - based on your info this guy did nothing out of his character. But I wonder if you might have and he pushed you into it. Ended up more playing all his other hands you saw and didn't really just play the hand that was sitting in front of you. Like you saw what he was doing and were chomping at the bit to get in a hand with him, and get heads up so you could cash in. Then your nice AK hits and cha-ching - off to the races? Does that sound like a possibility?

The flop isnt even that coordinated. Clearly if this guy overplays junk then the way to punish him is 4bet pre.

What did he show up with, AT or A6?
 
nabmom

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The flop isnt even that coordinated. Clearly if this guy overplays junk then the way to punish him is 4bet pre.

What did he show up with, AT or A6?

Doubt he would have folded to a 4-bet pre (but I guess I'll never know...)

A6
 
acky100

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4betting AK is super standard here, 4betting AK is pretty much super standard in most spots and especially especially when you're OOP. It only becomes a problem when you start 4betting AK against super nits who're only stacking off with KK and AA and are never 3betting light.
 
Deco

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4bet pre I meant! But ye it's standard.
Every single thread I'm mincing my words or misreading the hand lately :/
 
MediaBLITZ

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MediaBLITZ,
Thank you for such a well thought out analysis. I think you hit the nail on the head with this one!

Don't know that I'm playing so much in a vacuum, because any hand that I play is (usually) player-dependent. I do know that TPTK usually isn't good against a River bet by a loose/passive player. But in this case, I assumed he'd shove with a range that I mostly beat and playing his draws too aggressively.

FYP

I really like your ability to analyze what's really going on here. Mostly hoping to exploit his shenanigans. Hoping he'd call with worse single pair, or with a draw that he'd miss. Because, dammit, I want to win with AK!

BINGO.

I keep thinking that I don't really tilt so my issue isn't with the mental game, it's with learning more about playing SCs or how to 3bet better. How will I get it stuck in my head that I should be mainly playing straight-forward poker and be patient??


Because, dammit, I want to win with AK!

LOL - that really did make me laugh - that's the way we all feel!!!

Just slow it down a bit - you seem like a good and thoughtful player - just be sure to take the time to use those skills.

And totally understand what you are saying and agree about playing in vacuum. I guess my point is that generally speaking, top pair isn't worth a stack of chips. For me that is a baseline in this hand and provokes me to exercise pot control. But honestly, I might of very well have done the exact same thing - God knows I have. But I have also folded in this situation too (not that I should have - but again, in that particular situation, it just wasn't worth my stack).

And yeah Aldito - it was not a juicy wet flop, but with that looney toon it probably comes into more consideration - Flush Draw? Straight Draw? Set? 2 Pair? AJ? Air?

Just solid investment thinking - you must exercise due diligence - EVERY TIME! Yes, certainly use that players history as evidence but don't let it be a substitute for what is going on at that moment. Every once in a while these guy's hit. You still have to play defense - not figure that since it's a long 3-pointer he'll probably miss and blow it off.

But bottom line deb, it's not that you played it horribly - it's the process that got compromised (I think). And it may have ended up the same decision had it not. What I'm saying has less to do with this actual hand than it does helping you get profitable with Big Slick (which is not an easy hand to play - especially if you hit).
 
nabmom

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Just solid investment thinking - you must exercise due diligence - EVERY TIME! Yes, certainly use that players history as evidence but don't let it be a substitute for what is going on at that moment.
.....
What I'm saying has less to do with this actual hand than it does helping you get profitable with Big Slick (which is not an easy hand to play - especially if you hit).

That's gotta be my true goal with my play. Thinking more, reacting blindly less. And practicing that due diligence will help me play better with every hand I play, not just AK.

Now if I can just get that truly stuck in my head...

Again, thanks for solid and thoughtful responses. Very much appreciated.
 
MediaBLITZ

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That's gotta be my true goal with my play. Thinking more, reacting blindly less. And practicing that due diligence will help me play better with every hand I play, not just AK.

Now if I can just get that truly stuck in my head...

Again, thanks for solid and thoughtful responses. Very much appreciated.

You're welcome. Just a thought - kind of a Jedi mind trick - you need to convince yourself you are overvaluing AK (maybe you are, maybe you aren't - irrelevant). By doing this you will automatically start slowing down and walking through hands instead of running (with a blindfold on?)
 
A

Aldito

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You're welcome. Just a thought - kind of a Jedi mind trick - you need to convince yourself you are overvaluing AK (maybe you are, maybe you aren't - irrelevant). By doing this you will automatically start slowing down and walking through hands instead of running (with a blindfold on?)

He didn't overvalue AK at all in this hand. He undervalued it by flatting an 80/20's 3bet preflop.

*EDIT

ok missed the bracketed my bad
 
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P

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easiest 4bet get it in ever against a drooler
 
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