$25 NLHE 6-max: Top two pair on wet board (3bet pot)

N

noahband

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Hey guys.
What do you think of this hand? I shoved the flop mostly in order to try and protect my equity, I thought my hand was quite strong OTF but there are a lot of turns/rivers that can shut us down (third club, more broadways giving possiblity of two pair/straights, etc.). I would've gone for a smaller raise if my SPR wouldn't have been so small. Additionally, villain has trouble folding to overbets - he's had 3 or 4 opportunities this session and has called every time, often with a relatively weak hand - it seems like he really doesn't like being bluffed. As such I thought that there were a lot of worse hands that he's calling with here - AA/KK almost for sure, JT/QT if he's 3betting those, and likely also AQ/KQ.[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]
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Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

Hero (BTN): 134.84 BB

SB: 123.48 BB (VPIP: 26.20, PFR: 21.65, 3Bet Preflop: 9.00, Hands: 544)

BB: 107.72 BB (VPIP: 22.69, PFR: 18.42, 3Bet Preflop: 7.41, Hands: 834)

UTG: 109.24 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 11.43, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 36)

MP: 106.28 BB (VPIP: 24.65, PFR: 18.74, 3Bet Preflop: 6.45, Hands: 521)

CO: 165.6 BB (VPIP: 27.70, PFR: 20.88, 3Bet Preflop: 7.61, Hands: 2,295)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q J

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.52 BB, SB calls 2.12 BB, BB raises to 13 BB, Hero calls 10.48 BB, SB calls 10.48 BB
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Flop: (39 BB, 3 players) Q T J

SB checks, BB bets 18.52 BB, Hero raises to 121.84 BB and is all-in, fold, BB calls 76.2 BB and is all-in
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Turn: (228.44 BB, 2 players) 7

River: (228.44 BB, 2 players) K

Hero shows Q J (Two Pair, Queens and Jacks)

(Pre 40%, Flop 18%, Turn 9%)

BB shows K A (Straight, Ace High)

(Pre 60%, Flop 82%, Turn 91%)

BB wins 217.04 BB

0.96 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.
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MemphisGrind

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Hey guys.
What do you think of this hand? I shoved the flop mostly in order to try and protect my equity, I thought my hand was quite strong OTF but there are a lot of turns/rivers that can shut us down (third club, more broadways giving possiblity of two pair/straights, etc.). I would've gone for a smaller raise if my SPR wouldn't have been so small. Additionally, villain has trouble folding to overbets - he's had 3 or 4 opportunities this session and has called every time, often with a relatively weak hand - it seems like he really doesn't like being bluffed. As such I thought that there were a lot of worse hands that he's calling with here - AA/KK almost for sure, JT/QT if he's 3betting those, and likely also AQ/KQ.[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]
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Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

Hero (BTN): 134.84 BB

SB: 123.48 BB (VPIP: 26.20, PFR: 21.65, 3Bet Preflop: 9.00, Hands: 544)

BB: 107.72 BB (VPIP: 22.69, PFR: 18.42, 3Bet Preflop: 7.41, Hands: 834)

UTG: 109.24 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 11.43, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 36)

MP: 106.28 BB (VPIP: 24.65, PFR: 18.74, 3Bet Preflop: 6.45, Hands: 521)

CO: 165.6 BB (VPIP: 27.70, PFR: 20.88, 3Bet Preflop: 7.61, Hands: 2,295)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q J

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.52 BB, SB calls 2.12 BB, BB raises to 13 BB, Hero calls 10.48 BB, SB calls 10.48 BB
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Flop: (39 BB, 3 players) Q T J

SB checks, BB bets 18.52 BB, Hero raises to 121.84 BB and is all-in, fold, BB calls 76.2 BB and is all-in
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Turn: (228.44 BB, 2 players) 7

River: (228.44 BB, 2 players) K

Hero shows Q J (Two Pair, Queens and Jacks)

(Pre 40%, Flop 18%, Turn 9%)

BB shows K A (Straight, Ace High)

(Pre 60%, Flop 82%, Turn 91%)

BB wins 217.04 BB

0.96 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.
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Honestly, I would have played this hand the same way, IF I called the 3 bet.. Thing is I'm not calling the 3 bet most times. You have a decent hh on villain and they haven't really got out of line 3 betting it seems over 800+ hands, even being in position on villain we have to feel like we are calling behind... I understand implied odds, but I still feel like I'm folding pre here more times than not. I'd be interested to hear what others think.
 
Hujiko

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3Bet 7.4% not very big but still considerable amount. It was also a prime spot to 3Bet late opener and in-between caller so I normally don't mind calling the 3 bet with JQs. I also see that the 3 bet is quit big don't know what that means but I guess it is less likely that it is AA then as why to scare people away with AA.
When in this spot I would like to either 4 bet or fold most of the time my none prime hands as the SPR is to small to make my none prime hands playable.

On the flop you have top two on a very wet board (both players could have AK and their is a flush draw but that would not scare me, trips is also a possibility although you block two). I prob would just call to see what the SB (he could have AK also) does if he gives up then I would jam any turn.
 
MemphisGrind

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3Bet 7.4% not very big but still considerable amount. It was also a prime spot to 3Bet late opener and in-between caller so I normally don't mind calling the 3 bet with JQs. I also see that the 3 bet is quit big don't know what that means but I guess it is less likely that it is AA then as why to scare people away with AA.
When in this spot I would like to either 4 bet or fold most of the time my none prime hands as the SPR is to small to make my none prime hands playable.

On the flop you have top two on a very wet board (both players could have AK and their is a flush draw but that would not scare me, trips is also a possibility although you block two). I prob would just call to see what the SB (he could have AK also) does if he gives up then I would jam any turn.


I agree that villain has a great spot to 3 bet with hero opening from the button and a flat. Easy squeeze, however over 800 hands 7.4% is a pretty solid 3bet range. I also agree that the larger sizing "TENDS" to take away nut hands such as AA however, I'm almost never 4 betting in this spot, so a fold seems like the best option.. I also see merit in seeing the small blinds action by flatting on the flop.
 
TenJack

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I don't like jamming here at all. We never get called by worse, and the over-bet jam screams "I have a decent made hand but hate this board." I like flatting and then making a decision on the turn.

What is he calling with? maybe KK that we beat. I don't think he can randomly hero this with Kx, which would be neccesary for a profitable jam.
 
John A

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What worse hands do you see calling the jam? AA is probably folding a decent % of the time, so that leaves KK/TJ. There's way worse made combos you can get at least one more street of value that are folding to this jam.
 
MemphisGrind

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What worse hands do you see calling the jam? AA is probably folding a decent % of the time, so that leaves KK/TJ. There's way worse made combos you can get at least one more street of value that are folding to this jam.


Yea, I agreed with OP shoving flop. I said I would have played the hand same way IF I called pre. Do you call the 3 bet with QJ? I'm not folding every time. But, I'm folding more times than I'm calling...
 
TenJack

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Yea, I agreed with OP shoving flop. I said I would have played the hand same way IF I called pre. Do you call the 3 bet with QJ? I'm not folding every time. But, I'm folding more times than I'm calling...


Villain is LAG. He can have a wider 3-bet range (especially out of the blinds) than a TAG player here. QJs plays pretty well postflop and we are IP.

The 3-bet is very large... So, versus a fish who is sizing his bets based on hand strength we might have a fold as it would be heavy value, but other than that i think its a fine spot.
 
MemphisGrind

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Villain is LAG. He can have a wider 3-bet range (especially out of the blinds) than a TAG player here. QJs plays pretty well postflop and we are IP.

The 3-bet is very large... So, versus a fish who is sizing his bets based on hand strength we might have a fold as it would be heavy value, but other than that i think its a fine spot.

I completely understand villains range SEEMS wide and I get why everyone considers it an Ok spot to flat. but the sizing in this spot... I just can't shake folding pre being the better option here.. what are you putting villains range @? I'm taking all constructive criticism and noting it for review. Hopefully there will be some more comments.
 
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puzzlefish

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I get the idea behind jamming, but $25+ for two pairs on the flop where two out of four of the most likely hands that would be involved at these bet sizes have already made it past you ... KA, QQ. Leaves you hoping for a full house or a fold for $25. Next time you're in this situation consider wiring me that amount instead.
 
A

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Preflop: Not much to talk. QJs should be in our calling range in the BTN vs SB 3bet range, facing this reg. I would mark the SB as fish but also be careful when he call the 3bet.

Flop: I kinda doubt your choice of shoving. Your shoving seems too strong and will scare all the bluffing. His C-bet range is still very wide. On the flop you only lost to only AK, QQ, JJ, and TT or some 98s combs (maybe we can remove this since the SB cold call this reg may probably not choose this hand to 3bet ). 21 combos. You are ahead in most of the time. So I would choose to raise a little bit like raise to 55 BB. If he has AQ, KQs, KK, AA hands, he probably will call. The purpose is to get all the money. When you shove, he will fold all his bluffing will call with a heavy line.
Also, your raise may balance with some of your other drawing hands like KTs.
 
TenJack

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I completely understand villains range SEEMS wide and I get why everyone considers it an Ok spot to flat. but the sizing in this spot... I just can't shake folding pre being the better option here.. what are you putting villains range @? I'm taking all constructive criticism and noting it for review. Hopefully there will be some more comments.


I think that this is an example of: Villain (bb) knows that SB is calling to wide, so he is 3-betting this big to squeeze value out of SB. BU opening range is fairly weak, so he can be doing this with big broadways and medium-big pairs because he thinks that A: hero will fold a lot and B: SB will either call and give him value, or fold and he takes the pot.

He certainly can have AA, KK, QQ, AK here that we are dominated by, but we have a fair amount of equity versus some of the lower parts of his range. (88-TT, AT, etc.)
 
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u did get 3bet by the vilain pre flop that puts him on 99+, AJs+. going from there with your top two on this kind of board i dont c you ahead i c u at most on a coin flip but pushing on the flop u will be called only by better the only hand that can call u and u r ahead of is AA. Thats why i would call flop and re evalute, the turn look to me like an action killer and the river is a more action killer.
Now lets see the spoiler, yes AK it's in his range of course.
 
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