$25 NLHE 6-max: Rivered two pair facing a river bet

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RamdeeBen

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Ok; only reason I 3bet this hand was because I expected to take it down pre a ton. Villian is a reg..running 33/30 over 55 hands. He has a high steal percentage and I'd already told myself regardless of my hand, if it folds around to his BB again and he inevitably opens I'm 3betting any two as I expect a ton of folds.

Anyway; calls OOP to my 3bet so I think either some mid/suited hand like mine, pairs or some broadway hands like QJ/TJ maybe.

Anyways'

he nearly pot bets the river which surprised me I as expecting maybe a x/c or x/f.

I mean; it's really hard to put him on some sort of hand, he could literally have any piece/pairs or possibly some sort rivered straight or maybe some missed draws too.




So ; do we call, or do you think shoving is an option in this spot or do you think we only get looked up by hands that beat us?



Thoughts please; also on sizing.



Is checking back the turn fine?




pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

CO ($49.64)
Button ($25.25)
SB ($25.10)
Hero (BB) ($33.31)
UTG ($48.43)
MP ($33.06)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8
spade.gif
, 5
heart.gif

4 folds, SB bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.25, SB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.50) 5
diamond.gif
, 2
spade.gif
, 9
spade.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3.50, SB calls $3.50

Turn: ($11.50) 10
heart.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($11.50) 8
heart.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $8.10, Hero ?
 
hutz

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+1

I highly doubt he thinks you're 3betting 85o. With that in mind, this board looks like it misses most of your 3betting range, especially since you checked the turn. He's likely stabbing at the pot to take it down or he has the nuts.

I think the turn is the most interesting street of this hand. I expect that he'll float a wide range on a flop like that since it misses most of your perceived 3betting range. What do you think he thinks your 3betting range is?
 
pocketehs

pocketehs

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Ok; only reason I 3bet this hand was because I expected to take it down pre a ton. Villian is a reg..running 33/30 over 55 hands. He has a high steal percentage and I'd already told myself regardless of my hand, if it folds around to his BB again and he inevitably opens I'm 3betting any two as I expect a ton of folds.

Anyway; calls OOP to my 3bet so I think either some mid/suited hand like mine, pairs or some broadway hands like QJ/TJ maybe.

Anyways'

he nearly pot bets the river which surprised me I as expecting maybe a x/c or x/f.

I mean; it's really hard to put him on some sort of hand, he could literally have any piece/pairs or possibly some sort rivered straight or maybe some missed draws too.




So ; do we call, or do you think shoving is an option in this spot or do you think we only get looked up by hands that beat us?



Thoughts please; also on sizing.



Is checking back the turn fine?




PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

CO ($49.64)
Button ($25.25)
SB ($25.10)
Hero (BB) ($33.31)
UTG ($48.43)
MP ($33.06)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8
spade.gif
, 5
heart.gif

4 folds, SB bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.25, SB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.50) 5
diamond.gif
, 2
spade.gif
, 9
spade.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3.50, SB calls $3.50

Turn: ($11.50) 10
heart.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($11.50) 8
heart.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $8.10, Hero ?

i think because you check backed the turn it makes me want to call. His stats look kind of spazzy so I think I probably just call because we beat all his one pair type hands that hes value betting.

Is it possible he does this with hands like KT/AT/A9/JJ?
 
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RamdeeBen

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Thanks for the replies.

My thought process is indeed; he thinks I'm likely 3betting high cards in this spot as it's my first 3bet. I guess he could take pretty much any bluffs and I'm folding out all strong Ax hands/K,Q etc as the board is pretty gross for our 3betting range.

With all this in mind...he himself could be flatting 3bets with middling cards so I think just calling his river bet is the best line as he folds out all the worse hands and calls us with hands he beats us with, 9,T/8,9/6,7/J,Q?
 
acky100

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I think you should bet smaller in 3bet pots, something i've seen you do a bit is bet on the larger side, kind of unneccessary to get stacks in by the river and you make it a lot easier for villain to play perfect vs you.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Still adapting my sizing coming from the SnG back ground lol but - I'm actually getting mixed responses in general. People were saying my sizing in general is way to small. Maybe it's completely wrong in most spots but i'll get there...lol.


Anyway; as for the flop sizing; how much do you think? I'd of just thought with that sort of board...if I'm repping a strong hand; the board is somewhat connected, so in general; sizing should be slightly bigger no?

If I bet say, $2.50 for example and villian might perceive it as weak and just x/r me putting me in a worse spot


As for the hand; what's our river action?
 
Ducky7

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Snap river, people go crazy BvB and is it just me or fold pre?
 
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RamdeeBen

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Snap river, people go crazy BvB and is it just me or fold pre?

Just call; no point shoving?

Yeah; as I said normally I would fold pre. Thing is; the guy was a reg, running 33/30 and had a huge steal % & this was my first 3bet bluff which I expected to get a fair bit of respect from and had a hand that plays ok IP I guess especially if he flats my 3bet I'd expect to take down a ton of flops.
 
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nidal55

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I dont know if checking the turn is fine cause were now susceptible to bluffs and i expect those a lot fact that doesnt change here. Easy call , a bluff i think. Regarding your weak range after checking his bet looks fishy. Next time try punishing him with cards that play better postflop just in case.
 
S93

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Still adapting my sizing coming from the SnG back ground lol but - I'm actually getting mixed responses in general. People were saying my sizing in general is way to small. Maybe it's completely wrong in most spots but i'll get there...lol.


Anyway; as for the flop sizing; how much do you think? I'd of just thought with that sort of board...if I'm repping a strong hand; the board is somewhat connected, so in general; sizing should be slightly bigger no?

If I bet say, $2.50 for example and villian might perceive it as weak and just x/r me putting me in a worse spot


As for the hand; what's our river action?
In 2bet pots you need to bet big every where to get stacks in, 3bet pots half potting is fine since getting stacks in isnt really a problem.

As played I just flat the river. We beat plenty but not a lot of 1pair hands are gonna call a shove.
 
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nidal55

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shoving would be great if you had more hands on him. Depends on the leveling he wants to create by betting so high.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Ok - Thanks again for the replies guys! :)
 
Ducky7

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Just call; no point shoving?

Yeah; as I said normally I would fold pre. Thing is; the guy was a reg, running 33/30 and had a huge steal % & this was my first 3bet bluff which I expected to get a fair bit of respect from and had a hand that plays ok IP I guess especially if he flats my 3bet I'd expect to take down a ton of flops.

Still think its better to do it with a hand that can flop well or has some PF equity (Kx Qx)
 
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Jonny03UK

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Ok; only reason I 3bet this hand was because I expected to take it down pre a ton. Villian is a reg..running 33/30 over 55 hands. He has a high steal percentage and I'd already told myself regardless of my hand, if it folds around to his BB again and he inevitably opens I'm 3betting any two as I expect a ton of folds.

Is 55 hands really enough to get an idea of his steal percentage? I'd be more interested in his steal from the SB as well. If it's high then 3betting is likely going to be profitable often and chances are you could get away with calling a lot more hands too.

I'm just sure 55 hands is enough to go on to get a good idea of his steals. That's just me though.
 
Deco

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This is similar to your light 4bet with T8o.
Having a wide range is all well and good but 58o has no part within it.

This is more or less the widest range I'd ever 3bet and I made it only for regs who steal50%+ from the SB and have high F3Bs and even then I'd stop using this range if they adjust as it's very exploitable.

1f60d79c587eb0c883d1054b948c8716.png


Even this insane range has no 58o :p
Think more about your ranges and less about how your hand does in a vacuum.
 
Deco

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As played I call the river. At first a shove looks tempting as he has no straights in his range but think about what he can feasibly bet/call with here.
JJ+ 4bet pre
Tx only exists as better 2pairs or rare Tsxs (which probably doesn't bet this large)
Bare 9x is unlikely to bet, even less likely to stack off.
There is no value in betting and villains value range crushes us (TT,99,88, maybe T9s, we're pretty much calling to beat busted flush draws, lol with plenty of time to analysis this I almost want to fold.

C-bet the flop smaller
Checking back the turn is fine.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Some good input there Deco - thanks very much appreciate it :)

I'll take it on board.
 
Ducky7

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This is similar to your light 4bet with T8o.
Having a wide range is all well and good but 58o has no part within it.

This is more or less the widest range I'd ever 3bet and I made it only for regs who steal50%+ from the SB and have high F3Bs and even then I'd stop using this range if they adjust as it's very exploitable.

1f60d79c587eb0c883d1054b948c8716.png


Even this insane range has no 58o :p
Think more about your ranges and less about how your hand does in a vacuum.

Why arent you 3b'ing Q8o, J8o and 3b'ing T5o vs this madmen
 
hutz

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I'm not a big fan of polarized 3betting ranges.
 
ChuckTs

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This is similar to your light 4bet with T8o.
Having a wide range is all well and good but 58o has no part within it.

This is more or less the widest range I'd ever 3bet and I made it only for regs who steal50%+ from the SB and have high F3Bs and even then I'd stop using this range if they adjust as it's very exploitable.

1f60d79c587eb0c883d1054b948c8716.png


Even this insane range has no 58o :p
Think more about your ranges and less about how your hand does in a vacuum.

I'm +1 on your point about hand selection and range regulation - we should very rarely be 3betting 58o, even in position (over 55 hands I'm almost never), but I'm not on board with your hand selection. I have no idea why you're 3betting T6o over T6s, or even 86o instead of K4s. If the argument is that you're flatting those suited hands (which I doubt given my knowledge of your style), it'd take a pretty terrible postflop player to play those profitably as a standard.

Mine, against a similar %50+ SB open range, is a lot like this:

UyZK8kk.png


That said, YES to using hand selection as a frequency regulator, and to generally pick better postflop hands in general. Like Deco said, think about your RANGES and your HAND DISTRIBUTION rather than if it's profitable to 3bet a hand on it's own. Every single hand is profitable to 3bet on it's own. Think about that. I can 3bet 72o profitably vs a wide opener. But I don't. Think about why.

Why arent you 3b'ing Q8o, J8o and 3b'ing T5o vs this madmen

Not that I'm on board with 3betting T5o - let's say Q8o vs 64o. What are the advantages of having Q8o postflop in a 3bet pot? 64o? What kind of range does your opponent call with vs a 3bet?

I'm not a big fan of polarized 3betting ranges.

Great input!
 
Deco

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Why arent you 3b'ing Q8o, J8o and 3b'ing T5o vs this madmen

I'm flatting those hands.


I'm +1 on your point about hand selection and range regulation - we should very rarely be 3betting 58o, even in position (over 55 hands I'm almost never), but I'm not on board with your hand selection. I have no idea why you're 3betting T6o over T6s, or even 86o instead of K4s. If the argument is that you're flatting those suited hands (which I doubt given my knowledge of your style), it'd take a pretty terrible postflop player to play those profitably as a standard.

We have position T6s and K4s shouldn't be too hard to make a profit from when facing a 50% opening range, we're getting 2 to 1 odds and have position.
Heck I have 50% min openers and 90% SB openers I defend any two cards against.

Having said that it really sucks to 3bet junk like T5o but I can't really see anyway round it specially when against 90% opens and at least we don't get flatted often. Suitedness doesn't matter as much in position. Lol someones defo going to read that chart and take it as standard 3betting range :p
 
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rw11687

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Definitely should have kept betting on the turn. Gives you so much more info on his hand. From his perspective, you made a standard c bet on the flop. You are just as likely to have missed as hit the flop.

Because you checked the turn, it's hard to tell if he is leading out on the river thinking you have nothing, or if he actually hit a hand. By betting the turn, if he calls and leads on the river, you are most likely behind and makes folding an easier choice.

All in all there is a chance he is trying to steal, although its more likely he would have done that on the turn after your check. Seems like he hit, maybe holding a 67?
 
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rw11687

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Definitely should have kept betting on the turn. Gives you so much more info on his hand. From his perspective, you made a standard c bet on the flop. You are just as likely to have missed as hit the flop.

Because you checked the turn, it's hard to tell if he is leading out on the river thinking you have nothing, or if he actually hit a hand. By betting the turn, if he calls and leads on the river, you are most likely behind and makes folding an easier choice.

All in all there is a chance he is trying to steal, although its more likely he would have done that on the turn after your check. Seems like he hit, maybe holding a 67?

Sorry, for some reason the edit button wasn't available?

Anyways, I mixed up positioning somewhere along the way. Looking at it again, I think he is likely stealing given your turn check, or thinking his 1 pair is good. I would flat call.
 
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