$25 NLHE 6-max: Rivered Nut flush on paired board facing huge raise from reg

akaRobbo

akaRobbo

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 17/15/2

Villain is looking like a 25nl reg, seen multitabling. has 5% 3bet. stats are from 200 hands.

Thoughts guys?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com

Button ($31.83)
SB ($25.19)
BB ($26.13)
UTG ($48.17)
Hero (MP) ($25.35)
CO ($27.69)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A
club.gif
, K
club.gif

1 fold, Hero raises to $0.75, CO calls $0.75, 3 folds

Flop: ($1.85) 10
club.gif
, 4
heart.gif
, 3
club.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.38, Hero calls $1.38

Turn: ($4.61) 3
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($4.61) 9
club.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $2.99, CO raises to $12.15, Hero folds

Total pot: $10.59 | Rake: $0.52

Results below:
CO didn't show
Outcome: CO won $10.07

99?
 
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T

tomnovember

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You shall bet the turn as if you are holding overpairs.
 
suby_rafael

suby_rafael

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Seems like a good enough fold to me. Usually such a big raise from a multitabling reg on the river is not a bluff.

Unless this player is loose reg or we have some history i wouldn't be particularly interested in calling this huge raise. :)
 
akaRobbo

akaRobbo

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Why no cbet?


Was probably a mistake me not cbetting, I usually would here. But at the time I do remember villain had started to 3bet me and raise me quite a bit, I just didn't want to get raised and play a big pot OOP.
 
T

tomnovember

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Doesn't make sense if I don't cbet though?

If you do not cbet the turn, actually you can hardly identify whether you are ahead or behind on the river. So just bet.
 
BenjiHustle

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Betting for information is poor form. Bets should consist of value or bluffs. If we're betting at either of these streets, we're bluffing and need to fold to a raise. I like the line, but I don't necessarily like the fold. I'm curious as to why villain put in about half of their stack in on an overbet, though. Either they knew what you had and thought you'd pay-off or it was a bluff, imo. And me being me, I think it was a technical bluff. I wouldn't necessarily discount A3 being in this pot or QJcc. You said he's been playing back at you a lot; I just wonder how far he'd be willing to take it since it was such a recent development between you 2.

That said, your read is likely right. I mean, you have the history with this villain and he is ultra tight.
 
weldphaser

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just like benji said, info bets are nothing but trouble, no reason not to bet the turn here, you give a reg a super oppurtunity to bluff raise this river on you, if you bet the turn and get raised , idk man you have 200 hands on this reg so saying that you should have an idead of how he plays, bluffs etc, otherwise you may be multi tabling to much or just on auto- pilot and relying on stats to much..
 
T

tomnovember

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Doesn't make sense if I don't cbet though?

Sure. Your river bet seems to say that you actually missed and want to steal the pot however. Allin bluff from the villain is kind of good play here.
 
Y

yanivshe

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to me it looks like a bluff.
he wouldn't check the turn with a boat imo, so only 99 beat you.
he could be value raising the K high flush thinking you could have lower flush or trips to call with or overpair.
but sure looks like a bluff.
either way, the fold isn't too bad .
 
H

hffjd2000

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Looks like a bluff also from here.

The only hand I can imagine that beat us, is him holding 99.

I tend to call here.
 
John A

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There are worse flushes that can shove here, not to mention bluffs. It's really closer between shove or call than it is fold or call.

On a side note I'd c-bet or CR the flop.
 
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ScottishMatt

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Cbet flop, bet turn, Jam river.

As played call river. You can't simply put him on 99 and fold. I wouldn't raise the river but at the same time you have majorly under-represented your hand and so folding is bad.
 
akaRobbo

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Why would he raise that much with a Q high or worse flush. Sorry but im not buying he has a worse flush, it calls, doesn't raise that much.

He puts me on a flush so trys to get max value from a FH...

It's a pretty ridiculous bluff if he's got air, and one that just won't happen at the micro's. Lol, since when did micro players try and push people off flushes? Just doesnt happen does it?
 
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If he is a reg, then he has stats on you. Unless you are a fish and give up the betting lead with two overs+NFD on a regular basis then you should never have a flush here.

To make this a fold you have to give us more information. If he is twenty four tabling and snap 4x raises this river then I give him more credit than if he 4 tables and raises after about 10 seconds.
 
IPlay

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Why wouldn't he check back his FH IP on the turn? Hero is playing this hand like it is a draw and villain would want to let him catch up right?
 
John A

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Why would he raise that much with a Q high or worse flush. Sorry but im not buying he has a worse flush, it calls, doesn't raise that much.

He puts me on a flush so trys to get max value from a FH...

It's a pretty ridiculous bluff if he's got air, and one that just won't happen at the micro's. Lol, since when did micro players try and push people off flushes? Just doesnt happen does it?

He's not even making a pot sized raise. So it's not that large of a raise on the river honestly. But yes, I don't play micro's, but I've coached enough people at these stakes and I've seen plenty of people raise or even shove worse flushes here. Tons.

And why does he only put you on a flush? Don't you have a good amount of people at your stakes c/cing with AQ/AK and even worse on this flop. You don't really do anything this whole hand and then bet the river. You could even have air. I don't think he's only trying to push you off a flush. He could be trying to push you off AK/AQ, some other small pairs.

You're going to be beat here sometimes. Sometimes he's going to have a goofy boat. But what you're trying to decide, and what the good players are doing at higher stakes is looking at that entire range someone is going to have here, and considering the fact that you're opponent is now committed if he does have a lower flush and raise, they're weighing all of those range possibilities versus the times you're beat. So does shoving versus that range provide a slightly higher EV than calling? I think it's probably pretty close, but this guy is a bit tighter. Tighter players tend to not get paid off as much so they don't bet as much, so his range swings more to poorly played boat) because if he played it better, he maybe could have stacked you. But he still can have lower flushes and air. Some of these tight guys also like to play really small suited connectors. Not entirely sure why they do, I think they sometimes think they think other players won't think that's in their range. and then show up with 43s.

Any ways, I think calling is the higher EV play here, and a shove probably close. If he wasn't quite as tight, then shove would likely become slightly higher EV. Just my two cents. :)
 
akaRobbo

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He's not even making a pot sized raise. So it's not that large of a raise on the river honestly. But yes, I don't play micro's, but I've coached enough people at these stakes and I've seen plenty of people raise or even shove worse flushes here. Tons.

And why does he only put you on a flush? Don't you have a good amount of people at your stakes c/cing with AQ/AK and even worse on this flop. You don't really do anything this whole hand and then bet the river. You could even have air. I don't think he's only trying to push you off a flush. He could be trying to push you off AK/AQ, some other small pairs.

You're going to be beat here sometimes. Sometimes he's going to have a goofy boat. But what you're trying to decide, and what the good players are doing at higher stakes is looking at that entire range someone is going to have here, and considering the fact that you're opponent is now committed if he does have a lower flush and raise, they're weighing all of those range possibilities versus the times you're beat. So does shoving versus that range provide a slightly higher EV than calling? I think it's probably pretty close, but this guy is a bit tighter. Tighter players tend to not get paid off as much so they don't bet as much, so his range swings more to poorly played boat) because if he played it better, he maybe could have stacked you. But he still can have lower flushes and air. Some of these tight guys also like to play really small suited connectors. Not entirely sure why they do, I think they sometimes think they think other players won't think that's in their range. and then show up with 43s.

Any ways, I think calling is the higher EV play here, and a shove probably close. If he wasn't quite as tight, then shove would likely become slightly higher EV. Just my two cents. :)

Solid points John.

The problem I have with this particular hand is that he's tight. He's multitabling and we can be confident he'll be playing nearish ABC, therefore a goofy bluff is less likely. Is a $12.15 raise into $7.60 not big? After I just clearly valuebet/valuebet bluff $2.99 on the river? 99 makes so much sense here.

Overpairs are cancelled out as he's 3betting JJ-AA. I'm not sure 200 hands is going to give him that much of a read on me that he thinks a goofy bluff can push me off a flush, I wasn't playing that tight or weak.

Wtf is he trying to get calls from by raising that with a Q high or worse flush after I've bet the river?
 
akaRobbo

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Why wouldn't he check back his FH IP on the turn? Hero is playing this hand like it is a draw and villain would want to let him catch up right?

What? Check back FH on the turn?

I'm saying he makes 9s full on the river mate.
 
akaRobbo

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Oh I'm sorry play. Just back from an 11 hour shift and it's 3am so got mixed up a bit.

Yeah, he could have flopped a set. PPs make up a lot of villains range since he flatted my UTG open.

He's right to bet the flop to protect against flushes getting there. Turn gives,him a boat so now he actually wants the flush to make it.

Meh, villain deffo has a boat here!!!
 
T

tomnovember

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Maybe TT? As the villain can hardly get any more value from you if he bet the turn
 
akaRobbo

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weldph42790 said:
yeah if you take 4's and T's out for some odd reason then its a call OTR

44 99 and TT are 100% in his range.

People say it's a call because of worse flushes?

Q high and J high probably do raise, a J high flush means he called pre with like J rag, so that eliminates J high flush. 8 high or lower never raises here.

Literally only hand we beat is QJ clubs.
 
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