$25 NLHE 6-max: River TP, Villain makes polarised shove

youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 164.8 BB (VPIP: 10.66, PFR: 7.38, 3Bet Preflop: 6.00, hands: 124)
Hero (SB): 126.44 BB
BB: 132.92 BB (VPIP: 20.57, PFR: 14.18, 3Bet Preflop: 10.53, Hands: 144)
UTG: 115.2 BB (VPIP: 9.09, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 20.88, PFR: 18.47, 3Bet Preflop: 9.28, Hands: 254)
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 27.27, PFR: 25.84, 3Bet Preflop: 8.97, Hands: 212)

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K:heart: Q:club:

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (6 BB, 2 players) 8:club: 4:spade: 8:spade:
Hero bets 3.68 BB, BB calls 3.68 BB

Turn: (13.36 BB, 2 players) T:heart:
Hero bets 10 BB, BB calls 10 BB

River: (33.36 BB, 2 players) Q:heart:
Hero bets 16 BB, BB raises to 116.24 BB and is all-in, Hero ???
 
bgomez89

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Tbh, I might just c/f turn, no one is really folding on that card
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Tbh, I might just c/f turn, no one is really folding on that card
Yep, this looks like a pretty bad board to fire two on... Everyone just assumes you have nothing on a flop like this, and the T gives floats some draws/pairs and isn't perceived to hit you (again).

River is gross, I probably call it off in game because I'm a station. But this should probably be a fold.
 
C

CactusCat

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It looks like he slowplayed an 8 or has a full house. Or some crazy J9 that floated, maybe flush draw on the flop that picked up the open ender and runner runnered?

Damn. Are players at your stakes capable of making these moves with their whole stack on a bluff, or with just a 10? If so, $25NL is a massively different animal from $10 lol.
 
youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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Yep, this looks like a pretty bad board to fire two on... Everyone just assumes you have nothing on a flop like this, and the T gives floats some draws/pairs and isn't perceived to hit you (again).

River is gross, I probably call it off in game because I'm a station. But this should probably be a fold.

When I'm firing a second im always firing the third. I think at this level of zoom there's a lot of value to be had from people that give up the river but yeah this is a lot more marginal to do it especially against a competent player.

I called the river btw so I can reveal results later. For me, 8x makes no sense and because he seems fairly reggy I think a solid hand would value raise. The nail in the coffin was that he's from the UK.
 
J

jj20002

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wow, this is a hard call,

point is if villain had the trip or a full with 44 , this is the right way to play the hand i think, and because hero had the agression is expected a cbet which happened and villain were going to pay with any 2 in a dry flop (including having nothing), then the turn is a card that is in the range of any blind clash but because hero cbet a dry flop a second barrel (which was too scary high related to the pot) could be expected too, and then another card in any range but the highest in the board which opened a bluff option considering that hero´s third barrel was lower related to the pot (here i would prefer to check or shove having the TP)

the pot in the river was 33 BB before both players acted but then hero added 16 BB and villain went allin, then what to do next, really scary to pay here but i would make 2 scenarios, either the bluff or the best hand

if not bluffing: erase some monster hands like aces or kings or queens (preflop game) and also jacks, ten or nines since villain had to check raise the flop, then he could have pockets fours, pocket eights, 8x (including Q8, T8 or 84), Tx (including QT) and Qx (including AQ or KQ) and finally J9

the bluff could be made with any 2, but basically Ax (not 8 nor Q), or maybe 65, 76, 75, 97, 96 (chasing the missed project and then wanted to recover with a bluff)

the shove, no matter if villain lost, was a smart move because the way it was played the hand from the very beginning, the bets and the order of the cards displayed, opened the door to fire the river this way

i think is fifty fifty, so that`s why i had checked the river (hopefully hero took this pot because was huge)
 
J

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really want to know what happened in the river!! taking to long to release the final chapter here, he he
 
youregoodmate

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I'm waiting for a bit more feedback first.
 
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ScottishMatt

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I probably fold without any info on how he plays. I'm not sure if many 25 players can do this as a bluff. That said if he is good enough to raise a missed draw on this river then I think he probably raises the turn with it, knowing that the ten just doesn't ht your range much. That might actually make it a call.
 
suby_rafael

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Snap call this is highly likely a bluff. I think the villain shoves here thinking that we are bluffing and that we cannot have that a strong hand to call his all in bet.

Folding after improving our hand to top pair on the river where so many draws missed would be a mistake in my mind especially after villain played the whole hand passive from the beginning. He likely has a missed draw or a Queen with worse kicker at best. :)
 
youregoodmate

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Snap call this is highly likely a bluff. I think the villain shoves here thinking that we are bluffing and that we cannot have that a strong hand to call his all in bet.

Folding after improving our hand to top pair on the river where so many draws missed would be a mistake in my mind especially after villain played the whole hand passive from the beginning. He likely has a missed draw or a Queen with worse kicker at best. :)

This point is irrelevant. The dynamics just changed completely as soon as he jammed, so calling because we finally made our hand is not a reason to call.

I also disagree that this is a snap call. I did call but I tanked for about a minute.

He never has a queen either, a queen can easily flat the river and be good against my value range often at the price I gave him.

That's why he is polarised because top pair is not in his range at all. It's a great move by him if he's bluffing because majority of regs at this level will lay down top pair and overpairs to it.

Also not that many draws missed. The flush draw missed, yes, but, straight draws either got there or have some showdown value by the river.

My reasoning for the call was because I expect him to value raise any value hands, mainly because he is from the UK (players tend to be fairly more solid) and he has tight agg reggish stats, so the shove just doesnt make much sense.
 
suby_rafael

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Ok so i think calling here is the right decision and you did thinking the same but you think it is not a snap call. :icon_scra

I am obviously calling here because i think top pair is the best hand here thinking villain missed because he played hand passive pre flop, on the flop and the turn and then jammed the river. So obviously here i am implying that his shove doesn't make sense. Obviously we are not calling this shove unless we binked the river in the first place.

So obviously i worked out the same thing as you did for more or less the same reasons but i did it instantly hence the snap call. :driver:
 
youregoodmate

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Ok so i think calling here is the right decision and you did thinking the same but you think it is not a snap call. :icon_scra

I am obviously calling here because i think top pair is the best hand here thinking villain missed because he played hand passive pre flop, on the flop and the turn and then jammed the river. So obviously here i am implying that his shove doesn't make sense. Obviously we are not calling this shove unless we binked the river in the first place.

So obviously i worked out the same thing as you did for more or less the same reasons but i did it instantly hence the snap call. :driver:

My point is it's not an obvious call. As you can see from the good players ITT they think it's close, as do I, hence why I posted it. To say it's a snap call when an almost unknown overjams the river, is.. Well I don't like it. It isn't THAT clear cut.

Does anyone else think this is a snap?
 
suby_rafael

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I agree that you don't have to snap call here because i understand most people want to think it through (take their own time) and make the best decision. So i am not at all saying that everyone should be snap calling this. Take your own time. Some play fast, some play slow. But then there are players who like playing fast and making quicker decisions.

I can understand one arguing about the actual reason if it is a call / fold and also arguing about the reasons is fine and understandable.

But you disagreeing that that this is a snap call or not is quite silly. :hmpf:
 
J

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He never has a queen either, a queen can easily flat the river and be good against my value range often at the price I gave him.

.

this is the reason i had checked the river, having TP and a good kicker was strong enough to win the pot (which by the time was big)

meanwhile it was too risky betting the river in the way the hand had happened, villain could be slowrolling a fullhouse or chasing a project, and either way had many reasons to shove (considering the size of the pot) taking into account that hero bet the river smaller than the turn (related to the pot),

and here i have a question: why the sizes of the bet in flop, turn and river, any particular reason?

imho flop could be smaller and then the turn for me is too big and when villain didnt fold there then indeed he was ready to push the river (thats why i think 50% was bluffing)
 
A

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This isnt a snap call.. This rvr shove is very polarised and personally against a fairly unknown guy I wouldn't call it off. But yea if you think vill is more bluff weighted here and you have the reads then go for it. Only combos that beat us are 44,88,TT (cant see him shoving w/ AQ and he doesnt have much 8x or 9J in his range)

May even discount TT considering would he 3b it pre since he is aggressive 3b%
 
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youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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If villain was a very good player he would shove AQ. I think it's possible at higher limits but not at 25nl I don't think.

The river has to bet a value bet, I'm never ever checking that behind. There's still value to be had from villains range.
 
weldphaser

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goodmate, i'm just just curious about villain in this hand. 144 hand sample isn't much , but starts to paint a picture anyway. I would guess a good portion of his high 3b% comes from the blinds, and this is your classic BvB battle that can make you pull your hair out.

Hey seems sorta weak tightish, and i just don't think he' a good enough player to pull of a sick river bluff w a draw or anyhting your beating for that matter. I just don't see any other option but a fold here.

being oop i'm not thrilled about firing barrels on paired boards.
 
Q

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I'd make it smaller preflop , you're going to get alot of action in these spots (3bet pre by BB or postflop Blind v Blind ) and you don't want to blow the pot out of position.

I generally don't like betting this flop, what is he really going to fold here? Any PP , spadedraw , Ax is just going to call at least once here. Ok we might get him to fold things like 97 of hearts here or Q9o if he is loose enough to defend that but still that is only a marginal portion of his range.

But your plan was to cbet the flop I think so let's look further. Now that you cbet the flop and he called I generally assume he has something here. He's mostly not floating with KJ or something like that. The 10 is not a good card for us to fire on either. If I were to cbet the flop I'd only continue here on the turn on Kings, Queens , Jacks, Aces and spades.

But once again you made a bet and as I read here you like to bet the river when you bet the turn. Alright that's decently aggressive but not recommended here. What hands that are worse than ours are possibly gonna call a riverbet?
not many. The better option is to check here in my opinion, betting for value here is too thin and this is a great spot to let him bluff something like the deuces, treys , missed spadedraws , 67 (maybe).

I try to avoid these spots out of position at all costs and just play it safe here. If he defends wide from the BB I cbet the flop small and then see what happens.
You want to play as perfectly each session as possible and OOP you just make alot more mistakes than IP , therefore fading.
 
youregoodmate

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How is this thin value? He almost never has a better hand than us. Tx can call us easily, don't be scared of monsters in the closet. Betting the river here is a no brainer, if you aren't betting this then that's a huge leak.
 
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maybe it doesnt have to do with this thread, but what if the Q didnt come in the river?

bluff? slim chance to do it
 
H

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I'm fine with firing two barrels here. I'm also fine with checking back the turn.

Regardless, I snap fold to the river shove at 25NL. I don't think there's nearly enough equity to call. If I'm getting bluffed, I can live with losing 32+ BBs --- but I'm pissed if I make this call against my better judgment and lose 132+ BBs.

For the record, I see the merit in calling here. I honestly just think that villain is hoping you got a piece here.

-HooDooKoo
 
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youregoodmate

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maybe it doesnt have to do with this thread, but what if the Q didnt come in the river?

bluff? slim chance to do it

Yeah, I'm only betting the turn of I'm going to bet the river too.

Okay results time,

Villain showed up with 77, a very good bluff imo, he must have been raging when I called.
 
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jj20002

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wow, 77, i think everything conspired against villain in this hand,

not only because the river but the turn itself, and the way hero bet the turn froze the villain there (although i dont agree here with the size but the result was highly positive considering what happened next),

in the river villain went wild and again the hero´s move was confusing (betting less than the turn open the door to villains attempt to bluff), although it was a great move by him because if hero hadnt hit the river (here he was outsmarted), had carried a huge pot,

at the end was a great hand (ty for posting it)
 
H

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wow, 77, i think everything conspired against villain in this hand,

not only because the river but the turn itself, and the way hero bet the turn froze the villain there (although i dont agree here with the size but the result was highly positive considering what happened next),

in the river villain went wild and again the hero´s move was confusing (betting less than the turn open the door to villains attempt to bluff), although it was a great move by him because if hero hadnt hit the river (here he was outsmarted), had carried a huge pot,

at the end was a great hand (ty for posting it)

Many things worked against the villain in this hand, first and foremost his play. Villain could have taken this pot away with a raise on either the flop or the turn. Instead, he played his hand horribly and paid a large price for it.

The moral of the story: if you are in the villain's figurative shoes in a future hand, raise long before the river. Slow-playing the (vulnerable) pair of sevens is always dangerous.

Finally, youregoodmate, I'm glad that you ended up winning this hand --- but I still doubt that this call is profitable in the long term. Especially against someone that you would describe as a solid, reggy player.

Best of luck.

-HooDooKoo
 
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