$25 NLHE 6-max: River 2pair in 3b pot

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Arran

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Hero (SB): $38.72 (154.9 bb)
BB: $25 (100 bb)
CO: $34.12 (136.5 bb) [20/18 over 39 hands]
BTN: $25.25 (101 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Td Kd
CO raises to $0.75, BTN folds, Hero raises to $2.33, BB folds, CO calls $1.58

Flop: ($4.91) 2s 5h Ts (2 players)
Hero bets $2.53, CO calls $2.53

Turn: ($9.97) 7c (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $6, Hero calls $6

River: ($21.97) Ks (2 players)
Hero bets $7, CO raises to $23.26, Hero calls $16.26

I 3bet PF hoping to take it down the majority of the time, I CB like my whole range on this flop aswell. Should I be folding turn? I think by the turn he has TT/JJ/QQ/AT/A9s/AJs/AQs/AKs (so I am getting an alright price on a call and I still beat his FDs/occasional floated air). I donk river for thin value to target JJ/QQ/ATo hands that probably would check back river.
Overall I think I should have folded the river shove even though its like 3.2:1 I still don't think im good enough of the time
 
Figaroo2

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Imo If you were going to call on the turn you may as well have double barrelled for the fold equity. Once you check call you lose the initiative and are pretty much saying you don't have much .
If you don't have that many hands on him you can't know if he calls down regularly. The aggressive action must be best.You still do have top pair good kicker.
If called again then the K probably gives you enough equity to triple barrel or cc depending on your read of how often he goes to showdown If I don't improve on the river its probably check fold.
 
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Arran

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Why fold equity when I have a value hand though?
 
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

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Why fold equity when I have a value hand though?
That is a good question but you are oop, up against it and a pair of tens isn't usually of that much of a value hand in a 3 bet pot.
Here there is alteady a decent amount of bb in the middle to be won. Taking the pot down on the turn with a pair of tens is imo a good result in this hand. Checking gives him a free card to let him hit something that beats us and opens his full bluffing range . I can see counter arguements such as small hand small pot and wa /wb. But it is not a small pot and we only have 5 outs to improve. In this case it was lucky we did. Normally you won't so what are you doing on the river if an overcard falls that doesn't help and he sticks a large bet in your face ?
Good players will use position to make your life very difficult here. Im taking the simple play of DB putting a bet in his face and letting him deal with the pressure.
 
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Arran

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I would have folded to a brick river if he bet which is kinda bad (well depending how much obv). I was very close to folding the turn but I think you are right about barrelling turn to keep initiative especially if I knew he could fold JJ/QQ overpair. Also do you think the river lead is good?
 
Figaroo2

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20/18 with 4 players suggests he is tight/ solid and just feeling his way into the game.
I think a lot of the problems you had in this hand could have been avoided by not 3 betting a solid player a bit light from the blinds in the 1st place.
Save your light 3 betting for when you are position.
Re the river bet. These sort of small bets work better against fish.
bearing in mind the flush came in and we only called on the turn I personally wouldn't bet small. We have a medium strength hand which are the ones where most of our mistakes are made. cc or cf depending on the odds given. But i would be interested in hearing others opinions on the situation on the river.
 
akaRobbo

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Firstly, interesting hand, thanks for posting.

This is what happens so often when we 3bet light and get called in my experience, particularly at 5,10 and 25nl (as these are the stakes I've spent the majority of my time at) We just end up value owning ourselves so often. You really need to be careful who you're 3betting light and realise 3bet calling ranges. So many regs are nits and will only call 3bets with big pairs, Ak or Aq, few get out of line. So I agree with what has been said, 3betting KTs vs a 20/16 is alright, but if called you really need to tread carefully.

Re post flop, you've really got to be bet folding the turn IMO. Checking is horrible, for reasons previously stated. If called on the turn you have to check fold the river if you don't improve, or check call if you hit your K.
 
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Arran

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Do you think the river lead is alright vs passive or fishy players for thin val and check/calling vs regs/aggro bluffy players who would bomb that card? I guess it puts our hand kinda face up vs good players?
 
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atlantafalcons0

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I think the 3bet is bad preflop with a hand that can be dominated by lots of hands. As played you should have led again and fold to a raise. As played the river call was terrible as only hands that beat you make that play and I think that the aggression your opponent has shown throughout the hand is an obvious sign that he has a solid range. TT+, AQs+

In summary I just fold this hand preflop.
 
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aceben3

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I don't mind the 3bet preflop shorthanded. Folding is ok sometimes vs a tight player.

Flop is super standard.

Turn is interesting. I feel like if you check you have to check/call - you're too deep to c/r and your hand is too strong to c/f. Checking may control the size of the pot, but there are a lot of scary cards so I would generally bet. Unfortunately I have no idea what to do if you get raised so maybe checking is better, idk.

I don't think you should valuebet the river unless you perceive your opponent as very straightforward. I think you have to be able to fold to a raise if you're going to lead out. Otherwise, you could lead to try to induce a raise, but I don't think that's realistic. I would c/c if my opponent was tricky or creative.
 
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hffjd2000

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The 2pair is not a guarantee for the win.

I think the cheapest way is just to check/call this hand.
 
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weirdline

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Why fold equity when I have a value hand though?
I had a great post typed up but I guess my login timed out.

I'll just say that you win every time your opponent folds.
 
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weirdline

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The 2pair is not a guarantee for the win.

I think the cheapest way is just to check/call this hand.
This is a very weak thought process. It might not win every time, but I can't believe that we should be afraid to bet 2 pair for value here. It might be thin against a good player, because hero's line is suspicious. That will cut down on the number of hands that will pay you off, and obviously you're going to lose money when you're raised by a good player here.

Basically that's because I don't think check/call with a set on the turn is going to be a very common line. It's strange and I've got to think it's bad unless you have some way of knowing this guy is not going to give up once you've given up the initiative.

That being said, against average opponents, I would think you're fine with betting for value because they will check behind a lot of stuff they could end up clicking call with.

At the end of the day, though... this is a cash game hand. If it was a tournament, maybe you wouldn't want to risk your stack on a non-nut hand... depending on the circumstances... But that is because in a tournament, chips you lose are more valuable than chips you win. In a cash game, every dollar is worth the same.
 
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erlanditas

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you could fold the turn he represented bigger pair like JJ QQ KK AA or A10?
 
suby_rafael

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If you are 3betting with such a hand then i would have preferred to continue firing on the turn.

That said if you are 3betting light then you also cannot fold after making top two pair. That would then be an even bigger blunder - so definitely call the shove with top two pair. :D

Another thing why this is not a good reason to 3bet is that we are in the small blind. Out of position post flop.:p
 
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weirdline

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the small blind is a great place to 3 bet from
 
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