$25 NLHE 6-max: Raise/fold river with full house correct?

When raise/folding the river with a full house is most likely the correct play?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed)

BB ($64.44)
UTG ($25.70)
MP ($15.70)
Hero (CO) ($25)
Button ($9.65)
SB ($16.68)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6 , 6
2 folds, Hero bets $0.75, 2 folds, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.60) 4 , K , 6 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.20, BB calls $1.20

Turn: ($4) Q (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($4) 4 (2 players)
BB bets $2.25, Hero raises $6, BB raises $36.25


Villain in this hand is a reg nit. When he calls my flop bet I know for sure he has a piece. Could be a set of 4s or a FD or Kx. Turn brings the flush, so I check behind. River boats me up. He then leads. To me this is either a flush trying to eek a little bit of value out of any Kx I might have, or better. I raise thinking he'll call with the flush. However, he shoved. Looking at the board and knowing his ranges (he has K4s like never), I am BEAT right?

I'm really confused .. what beats you here apart from KK and QQ?

jbbb said:

I'm really confused .. what beats you here apart from KK and QQ?

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I think he would have 3bet KK pre. Maybe QQ too, although he's a nit so calling is also a remote possibility.

This hand is more about what bet/shoves the river here? A fish, the nut flush even. But this guy is (as stated above) a reg nit. Can we ever be turning over the winning hand in this spot against this villain?

jbbb said:

I'm really confused .. what beats you here apart from KK and QQ?

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If villian is holding As 4s it would play out as above with you holding winner.

kissapig said:

If villian is holding As 4s it would play out as above with you holding winner.

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IMO a nit would call my river raise, not shove.

call, he can have nut flushes, KQ, A4s

the only thing that logically beats u is quads and u can't put him on one combo

Pascal LeFiscal said:

call, he can have nut flushes, KQ, A4s

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Against this guy? Not in a million years. I RAISED his river bet (= super strong). He will NOT shove with anything but a super monster. Let's not forget that the board is paired, and all I have is the worst second best hand.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. You'll often see people calling a big river bet with a set of Queens, despite it being obvious that the guy is representing the flush or the board has a 4 straight on it or something. At that moment there, your set of Queens might as well be A high. It's a bluff catcher and nothing more.

Unless this nit didn't notice the board pair, he is never shoving the flush... EVER.

Call.

Everything that beats you should have raised the flop or pre.

Nits overplay sets cuz ZOMG FRUSH DRAW, MUST OVERBET.

Also, bet the turn.

baudib1 said:

Call.

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Snapped... obv! lol I had a mofo FULL fking HOUSE man !!! Ship it.

baudib1 said:

Everything that beats you should have raised the flop or pre.

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Not true. And just because he didn't raise the flop doesn't mean we have to ignore the river action. Let's not get so bogged down by previous streets not to see what's staring us in the face right now.

Anyway, I'm in a minority of 1 here, so I guess I'll have to reassess my thoughts on this one.

Just to be clear... this hand is villain dependant in the extreme. A nit. A reg nit. A grinding nit. An uber nit if you like. Not a happy go lucky Frenchy who shrugs his shoulders when trips aren't the goods in that spot.

Cafeman31 said:

ot true. And just because he didn't raise the flop doesn't mean we have to ignore the river action. Let's not get so bogged down by previous streets not to see what's staring us in the face right now.

Anyway, I'm in a minority of 1 here, so I guess I'll have to reassess my thoughts on this one.

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"bogged down"? you play a hand, not a street. you can't just make your decisions based on what has happened on this street and not consider how his previous actions change his range.

I think it all comes down to what the nit perceives you as.

If he thinks you're capable of raising with any flush then he's always shoving in the hope you call it off.

If he sees you as a nit yourself, aggressive, decent player then I can't see him shoving even with Ace high flush here just the way the hand was played.

Realistically though I think a uber nit is always 3betting Kings/Queens here because he is out of position here (again, we don't know history between you and nit)so I think we can "most" of the time take this away from his range. I think you have to call regardless but indeed I guess it's very possible for him holding 4'4s, be it a long shot.

To be honest though, thinking about it, a uber nit "grinder" I can't ever see shoving with a flush draw on a paired board (unless he misses the paired board by mass multi tabling?) even with Ace high flush UNLESS you are an insane loose player which I doubt you are..

I have to call, can't ever fold but wouldn't be overly surprised if we was beat just going of your decription of the player in general. Most nits never ever shove unless it's the absolute nuts.

Pascal LeFiscal said:

you play a hand, not a street. you can't just make your decisions based on what has happened on this street and not consider how his previous actions change his range.

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I didn't... I meant don't base your read solely on one street... in other words, I completely agree with your statement

Saying things can't get there based on what he /should/ have done on the flop, doesn't mean we can lop out those combos. If you look, I actually state, that given what calls on the flop, we can start to narrow it down by the river. Saying 44 always raises there so we can discount it by the river is incorrect imo. 44 calls that flop a decent amount of the time too.

OK, let's turn this around. What is he representing here on the river? I can only beat a bluff imo.

Cafeman31 said:

Just to be clear... this hand is villain dependant in the extreme. A nit. A reg nit. A grinding nit. An uber nit if you like. Not a happy go lucky Frenchy who shrugs his shoulders when trips aren't the goods in that spot.

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I think the grinding nits are all taking classes together or formed a union or all read the same book. Lately I've noticed that they are ultra passive with their monsters until the river. They'll call with other hands but shove nuts and never bluff.

On the other hand there are more and more and more awful nits that donk sets.

Either way, without history I'd call here.

ramdeebam said:

I think it all comes down to what the nit perceives you as.

If he thinks you're capable of raising with any flush then he's always shoving in the hope you call it off.

If he sees you as a nit yourself, aggressive, decent player then I can't see him shoving even with Ace high flush here just the way the hand was played.

Realistically though I think a uber nit is always 3betting Kings/Queens here because he is out of position here (again, we don't know history between you and nit)so I think we can "most" of the time take this away from his range. I think you have to call regardless but indeed I guess it's very possible for him holding 4'4s, be it a long shot.

To be honest though, thinking about it, a uber nit I can't ever see shoving with a flush draw on a paired board even with Ace high flush UNLESS you are an insane loose player which I doubt you are..

I have to call, can't ever fold but wouldn't be overly surprised if we was beat.

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Yep, pretty much this is the way I see it.

He defo does not see me as a retard, but rather as someone who wouldn't stack off light. There is no way he would expect me to call with a worse flush, he would in effect be turning his flush into a bluff if that is what he had there.

RVladimiro said:

I think the grinding nits are all taking classes together or formed a union or all read the same book. Lately I've noticed that they are ultra passive with their monsters until the river. They'll call with other hands but shove nuts and never bluff.

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Agreed.

RVladimiro said:

On the other hand there are more and more and more awful nits that donk sets.

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Yep, I have a simple note on these guys:-
F: donk = got it.

RVladimiro said:

Either way, without history I'd call here.

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I did, even with a few k hands of history.

OP, tbh all your posts sound very results oriented.

River is a call, but as baudid said bet the turn! Makes this much easier to play.

Yes KK,QQ,44 beat you, but there are certain hands that come along where you are destined to play, win or lose, and this is one of them. Have you ever lost a str8 flush to a higher str8 flush? if not, you haven't lived yet.

You have fewer than 10 combo's that you lose to. Ship it happily.

If you know villain is a nit, then probably villain see's you as something, perhaps an overagro nut, and is coming at you with AA, or x4, or AK, or a plethora of alternatives that would play out the same. FWIW, I see this often where the nut flush, or even a high flush will do this exact same thing.

Villian obv had 44 by the looks of all your posts. If he had 44 it's just a super cooler. Plus if he is as nitty as you say nits like to raise sets on twotone flops so it's not even like you could have got away from it. I can't fold because there is one combo that can beat me

dj11 said:

Yes KK,QQ,44 beat you, but there are certain hands that come along where you are destined to play, win or lose, and this is one of them. Have you ever lost a str8 flush to a higher str8 flush? if not, you haven't lived yet.

You have fewer than 10 combo's that you lose to. Ship it happily.

If you know villain is a nit, then probably villain see's you as something, perhaps an overagro nut, and is coming at you with AA, or x4, or AK, or a plethora of alternatives that would play out the same. FWIW, I see this often where the nut flush, or even a high flush will do this exact same thing.

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I am shipping it but...I think it might not be as clear cut as everyone thinks, i cant be happy shipping here just because theres few combo's we lose too, we have to be able to beat combo's to justify it too. How nitty was the said guy cafeman?

I can never see this guy playing AA like this ever ever ever ever, i cant manage to put any 4x hands in his range here ever either if he is a big nit, and which nit is going to be happy playing AK in this way, maybe at 2nl but nits love their precious money and the only two hands i can see an uber nit having in his range here are 44 and AJs, so call but if you know he isnt playing an Ax suited hand ever here then its really ****ing tricky imo - the board and dynamics between players here could narrow his range down to a very little one here imo, if the nit is as nitty as im imagining cafemans explaining.

lol, this is possibly the poorest played hand i've ever seen. You flop second set on the board and make a 2x bet which is less than 30 percent of the pot. To follow that, you show an extreme sign on weakness by checking the turn, and than fold a top four hand when you make a full house on the river. At Worst, you reluctantly call and say wow that was unfortunate. KK and QQ have to chances to three bet for value. If he did have a winning hand, he as well played it very poorly haha. Ever see that hand, I think its Negreanu and Hansen during high stakes on GSN full house versus quads... same situation, a pro shouldn't be folding this, only accepting natural variance.

ThePokerGoon said:

lol, this is possibly the poorest played hand i've ever seen. You flop second set on the board and make a 2x bet which is less than 30 percent of the pot. To follow that, you show an extreme sign on weakness by checking the turn, and than fold a top four hand when you make a full house on the river. At Worst, you reluctantly call and say wow that was unfortunate. KK and QQ have to chances to three bet for value. If he did have a winning hand, he as well played it very poorly haha.

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When did he make a 2x bet which was less than 30% of the pot? I think this is actually an interesting hand because of the hand reading that goes with it, agreed that the turn should of been bet but dont just come and lol at a hand because you think its played poorly when the flop was played fine.

Oh and also Cafeman; when he bets 2.25 the river and we expect either quads or a nut-flush, why not shove all in and take his stack when he has the nut flush or flush if hes capable of having lower ones? he wont fold it, and he'll get our full stack when he has us beat. Yet we only might get 3.75 more when we raise and he calls with some flushes or something.

acky100 said:

When did he make a 2x bet which was less than 30% of the pot? I think this is actually an interesting hand because of the hand reading that goes with it, agreed that the turn should of been bet but dont just come and lol at a hand because you think its played poorly when the flop was played fine.

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OOPS! you are right, I misread. 4x was what i meant. He bets 1.20 into a 1.75 pot. Still a weak bet, you should be potting here if not over betting for a misdirect.

Just to set the record straight, I don't like folding full houses, no one does, and I didn't

ThePokerGoon said:

OOPS! you are right, I misread. 4x was what i meant. He bets 1.20 into a 1.75 pot. Still a weak bet, you should be potting here if not over betting for a misdirect.

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1.20 into 1.60 is 3/4 pot. What's weak about that? I want a call, not a fold.

acky100 said:

How nitty was the said guy cafeman?

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Think fx.

acky100 said:

Oh and also Cafeman; when he bets 2.25 the river and we expect either quads or a nut-flush, why not shove all in and take his stack when he has the nut flush or flush if hes capable of having lower ones? he wont fold it, and he'll get our full stack when he has us beat. Yet we only might get 3.75 more when we raise and he calls with some flushes or something.

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You think he would call our shove with the flush? In this instance, I didn't think he would, so went with a value raise that a flush would call. Maybe a shove there is +EV overall though, I've not really calculated it out. Can't see anything I beat calling it in the long run (specifically against this villain - of course against a random guy I'm shoving all day long and also betting the turn).

So, let's take a look at the real reason I posted this hand. It's a cooler, and I've got to pay him off, I've got a full house. Hang on a minute, have I really got to pay him off given villain and the line? Most of you say yes, I say maybe it's not that clear cut a case.

With regards to the turn bet (or absence thereof). If he did make his flush then I stand a chance of being blown off my redraw if he goes crazy and shoves (he's a nit). If he didn't, then he most likely folds (unless he has specifically 44 or KQ), so again, I'm not really getting value from many combos. If I don't boat up and he donks river, I intend to call regardless. I mostly never check behind in these spots of course, but in this case it was villain dependant. So again, I argue that turn is not clear cut either.

OK, let's look at the river. I'm calling 17 to win 33, I've got be good 34% of the time to break even on this call. Am I good a third of the time when I face a shove over my river reraise from a nit? What is he representing here? The board is paired, and he's not stupid. He knows I'm not stupid either. So, it comes down to this imo. He has to be bluffing more than 34% or I fold, and because he's bluffing approximately give or take and allowing for rounding errors 0% in this spot, I think I should have found a fold.

Our hand could be considered simply a bluff catcher in this instance. If he has the nut flush he is calling my river raise here 100%, if he has KQ, he's calling my river raise 100%. 4x doesn't even get this far.

We can talk about combos all we like, but when the villain's actions so clearly define his hand, then we have to accept that the other combos that existed until the river can most likely be lopped off. We're left with KK,QQ (however unlikely given preflop action) and 44.

IMO we need to ignore the 'strength' of our hand and ask can we beat what he is representing? No. So now we have to consider how often he is bluffing, because our full house is as good as the nut flush in this instance (i.e. a bluff catcher and nothing more - I believe it's referred to as 'hand equivalencey').

I notice that the replies from people who play cash games against nits on a regular basis are more understanding of my pov than those who do not.