$25 NLHE 6-max: Line check, c/c lead turn arguments

youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (SB): $25.00
BB: $27.54
CO: $47.19
BTN: $25.00

Hero posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has T:club: T:diamond:

CO raises to $0.75, BTN calls $0.75, Hero calls $0.65, fold

Flop: ($2.50, 3 players) Q:club: 2:spade: 2:diamond:
Hero checks, CO bets $1.50, fold, fold

CO wins $2.39

Okay so in this scenario I elected to flat because both players had very high F3Bs.

Now when the flop comes I think calling is fine. I think x/c flop and checking the turn is the worst way we can play the hand.

For me its -

x/c lead turn > x/r flop > x/f flop > x/c flop x/? turn

Just had a long discussion with 9K and Cafe about this and referred them to a similar hand discussed on 2p2.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/micro-stakes-full-ring/cotw-last-red-line-post-ever-791734/

Any thoughts.
 
acky100

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well check raising seems pretty bad, i think you're looking at this hand in a vacuum.

I'm check calling and that's all, not sure we'd want to check call and lead this hand if we had a gameplan of check calling and leading turns here.

also that thread is meh, i used to like the COTW posts when i was an even bigger noob and i generally like all the OP's posts, but really a lot of them are written by players who arent great (although some are really good for sure and i've gained a lot from reading them all) and just make up nice sounding arguments for everything they say. Look, he's folding 88% of big blinds, if thats not a huge ****ing leak then i dont know what is! This is how poker has advanced, nowadays everyone should know that folding your BB 88% is ridiculously bad however when this was written noone even considered it.
 
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The Messiah

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Didnt think one could make a hand like this 'look' so complicated, this is a lol standard spot man..
 
Cafeman

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Villain stats are missing, but he was approx 28/24 with a cbet of 80% over 200 hands or something like that. I did say to include the stats, but I guess he forgot. In other words, he has a very wide opening range and cbets this board almost always.

I will say that both 9k and I were a little surprised by his c/f otf though :D

The main thing that seemed to be tormenting YGM's soul was, should we allow him to either a) bluff us off the best hand on the turn or river, or, b) improve to the best hand on either the turn or the river.

Arran, no prizes for guessing my preferred line lol
 
youregoodmate

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Didnt think one could make a hand like this 'look' so complicated, this is a lol standard spot man..

Care to share? Or is this standard spot difficult to see on your high horse?
 
A

AlwaysPlanAhe

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I'm definately c/c at least 1 street. Villain bets his entire range here expecting to win the pot a huge % of the time and 4 handed, TT is too good to fold. The turn is where I make the bigger decision and i'm not sure if this is a good line or good thinking but this is what I would do. First off I check the turn, if he checks behind then we're ahead and can c/c or value bet river as standard. But if he bets turn then we can c/r + barrel river to try and push Qx out the pot by turning the tens into a bluff.

It's player and image dependant whether the c/r barrel line is +EV but it seems like having this plan for the turn gets us the maximum value from our hand whether we're ahead or behind. My thinking could be wrong though and would definately be up for some discussion about it if anyone disagrees.
 
The Messiah

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Care to share? Or is this standard spot difficult to see on your high horse?

Dont get so offensive, ok, dont come across the best here but thats the drink speaking
.
People seem to take everything I say the wrong way, or just start putting random shit I never said in my mouth./rant..:(

OK, Il try explain it, basically a semi lag like this is right to c-bet this board 80%+.
So we should be floating a lot here and also any turn especially any Q/K/A/J and probably a 9, when we do so, we should call pretty much any river.
This is pretty broad but the most important stat thats needed you dont provide,i.e it being his barrel frequency.
When its not any of the above cards im ok with calling one more street and c/f rivers.

Do this and get back to me, you will see things have changed, quite dramatically too.

25nl/
 
youregoodmate

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I don't think i made the original post that clear, I want to consider the benefits and drawbacks of check/calling the flop and turn vs check/calling then leading the turn. Assume this is against a reg that is unlikely to bet the turn with air.
 
acky100

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Think about how your whole range plays spots and then think why it might not be a great idea to call flop lead turn with a hand like TT here. Also ask yourself why you are worrying about x/c flop x/f turn or x/c flop x/c turn x/f river here?
 
frozensprx

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when you lead the turn you would likely fold out any non Qx hand.....why would you want to do that if you think you have the best hand? A better route would be check/call turn unless another broadway card comes in which case you might want to consider just folding. If you goal is to fold out a hand that doesn't have a Q then why would you wait for the turn? Just raise the cbet.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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in to see how this develops..

annoys me how no-ones said squeeze pre either
 
youregoodmate

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Say cafe just clued me in, wondered why no one was making any sense!

I posted the wrong link, oh well **** it cba to find it again.
 
Ducky7

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Defo x/c flop and plan to x/c most turns and some rivers imo, dont know what other options you can take, i guess sometimes you can raise GII OTF if you think he will spaz with smaller PP's than yours (but thats more of a tourney thing)

Apart from that theres no sense into raising any other street other than turning your hand into a bluff or a T peels.
 
Ducky7

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Leading the turn doesnt really achieve that much, its gonna get raised a bunch of the time and fold out worse, and when you get raised you are in a lol bad spot thinking why did i just do that and probably ending up folding the best hand some of the time
 
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DunningKruger

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Don't know stats on btn but I'm definitely squeezing here. You say you wanted to play a multiway pot out oop because you didn't want to scare anyone away from your tens, but then check/fold to the opener's cbet on a bone dry flop? Note that the flop will show at least one overcard here about 70% of the time, so I think the plan for this hand is a bit flawed. I'd also argue that the correct adjustment when your opponents are folding to 3bets too much is to reraise more often instead of less often. I'm probably saying things everyone else has already said since this topic already has a bunch of replies, but meh. Just in case.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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Don't know stats on btn but I'm definitely squeezing here. You say you wanted to play a multiway pot out oop because you didn't want to scare anyone away from your tens, but then check/fold to the opener's cbet on a bone dry flop? Note that the flop will show at least one overcard here about 70% of the time, so I think the plan for this hand is a bit flawed. I'd also argue that the correct adjustment when your opponents are folding to 3bets too much is to reraise more often instead of less often. I'm probably saying things everyone else has already said since this topic already has a bunch of replies, but meh. Just in case.

the junior just showed you up in your own thread.

agreed, but we should be 3betting more bluffs and less value hands if they fold a lot to 3bets.

this thread deserves more action imo
 
D

DunningKruger

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agreed, but we should be 3betting more bluffs and less value hands if they fold a lot to 3bets.

More bluffs, absolutely. Less value hands, well, that can be debated I suppose, since you'll want to be widening your 3betting % overall.

Even poor players can notice if you're fos every time you're 3betting. If they see you flat a hand like KK and you get to showdown with it, it does a lot to your perceived squeezing range. Conversely if you're squeezing a big pair and it gets to showdown (even once) then villain is likely to be a lot more wary of your 3bets and you can get away with steals more frequently. The premium hands protect your range here so that you're not playing weak hands exclusively.

In this particular hand, TT doesn't play that well in his situation (being first to act in a 3 way pot with a hand that basically has 2 outs to improve) as OP discovered when he realized he's unable to play a pot of any real size without over repping his hand, so I believe squeezing is the better play here especially when co opens and btn flats. As you mention, we can also squeeze light more frequently versus these players which will probably increase the odds of getting a call from one of them when we have the goods and also line our pockets with a lot of dead money while we're at it.
 
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AlwaysPlanAhe

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No no no, OP does not wish to discuss anything else other than the merits of c/c then donk v's double c/c. The fact you are entirely correct with what you've been saying about 3bets means nothing. We are strictly choosing between electrocuting our balls or stabbing ourselves in the leg.
 
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DunningKruger

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Yeah I have a bit of habit of replying to topics like these without reading all the replies (so as not to be influenced by any other opinions). I see now where he amended his original question, so I apologize to the OP for not being more specific to what he wanted to know.

That being said, it makes very little sense to me why we'd check/call the flop and then lead on he turn here. I'll vote for stabbing ourselves in the leg.
 
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