$25 NLHE 6-max: KK facing raise and call on wet flop

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PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 109.56 BB
BTN: 103.04 BB
Hero (SB): 168 BB
BB: 122.12 BB

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K:diamond: K:club:

fold, BTN raises to 2 BB, Hero raises to 7 BB, BB calls 6 BB, BTN calls 5 BB

Flop: (21 BB, 3 players) 6:heart: J:club: 3:heart:
Hero bets 15.04 BB, BB raises to 44 BB, BTN calls 44 BB, Hero ???



SB was kind of fishy, about 25/10 under 20 hands and button was total nit 4/4 stats ~20 hands.

Button tank called ~45 seconds before calling flop raise.
 
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ScottishMatt

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Got to feel this is a fold. For you to be good here they both pretty much have to have the bottom of their range which is flush draws IMO. For BB to have a flush draw here means that BTN is less likely to have one because of blockers. I think at least one of your opponents has a set. Tough laydown but one I'd make.
 
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Do you think Button is basically capped to 1 pair or a flush draw after he tank calls raise? Also, do you think SB cold calls my 3 bet with 33 or 66?
 
Aces2w1n

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SB is fishy he wont follow solid ABC poker thats why they are fish so its def possible
 
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Button raises y tho... he put u on ak
 
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SB is fishy he wont follow solid ABC poker thats why they are fish so its def possible

Tight fishy though? What ranges do you put each player on?

BB: AJ, QQ, JJ, 66, 33, Axhh. I'd like to cut 33 out of here because even if he does cold call a 3 bet with 66, 33 he probably doesn't do it every time. Is that flawed thinking?


Button: AJs, QQ, Axhh. Only? Wouldn't a nit be jamming a set in this spot?

Do you think they turn up with non nut flush draws in a 3 bet pot with this flop action?
 
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rlzaleski

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I don't feel qualified to comment here. But I wouldn't try to get into the mind of a fish much more than to figure out if he got there on his draw. Every time I see them call off I'm like what? Even if I'm bluffing they are beat...

Then the poker gods laugh and I cry.
 
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BB 3Bet calling range = JJ/QQ/AA/AK/AQs/TT possibly AJs
BB flop raising range = JJ/AKh/AQh/AA/ possibly AJh if he has it

BTN 3Bet calling range = suited broadways/non suited AQ and AK/every PP except KK/QQ
BTN flop raise calling range = anything that hits here but isn't 1 pair so FD/set

With you Cbetting after the cold call and then the cold caller raising BTN has to drop his 1P hands. Your only getting this in while being +EV if they both happen to have a FD and one is almost always paired with the J if they both do. I'm not bothering to run that into an equity calculator because OPvFDvFD+TP is such a rare occurrence given ranges that you have to fold anyway. Someone has a FD and someone has a set, almost always IMO. Possible even JJ vs 33/66.

You would also be decent if you are up against QQ from BB and FD from BTN. Still think it's a fold though as BTN should (and I like to think probably will) push all his FDs.
 
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Button has to think he has no fold equity in this bloated pot so that means he should shove all sets and flat flush draws hoping that I also flat call flop. It is probably lower EV to shove a flush draw here then it is too call. It is rare that this happens but I think this is one of those spots.
 
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walleye

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I shove here. I don't play these stakes though.
 
Aces2w1n

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Scots would fold ... id consider it..

There is fold equity there so flatting wil get u in... who cares if flush hits we can boat river and tripple up.

Thats my guessing if button has set... ignore the fish cuz he can have anything. Focus on the strong player if he wants u to fold he will raise.. wants u to call he will flat

Thats me puttinf myself in button shoes if he has ser
 
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BB 3Bet calling range = JJ/QQ/AA/AK/AQs/TT possibly AJs
BB flop raising range = JJ/AKh/AQh/AA/ possibly AJh if he has it

BTN 3Bet calling range = suited broadways/non suited AQ and AK/every PP except KK/QQ
BTN flop raise calling range = anything that hits here but isn't 1 pair so FD/set

With you Cbetting after the cold call and then the cold caller raising BTN has to drop his 1P hands. Your only getting this in while being +EV if they both happen to have a FD and one is almost always paired with the J if they both do. I'm not bothering to run that into an equity calculator because OPvFDvFD+TP is such a rare occurrence given ranges that you have to fold anyway. Someone has a FD and someone has a set, almost always IMO. Possible even JJ vs 33/66.

You would also be decent if you are up against QQ from BB and FD from BTN. Still think it's a fold though as BTN should (and I like to think probably will) push all his FDs.

I think SB is more likely to have QQ then AA in this spot considering preflop action. I also think he could of called pre with any AJ suited but only raises heart variant on flop.

Scots would fold ... id consider it..

There is fold equity there so flatting wil get u in... who cares if flush hits we can boat river and tripple up.

Thats my guessing if button has set... ignore the fish cuz he can have anything. Focus on the strong player if he wants u to fold he will raise.. wants u to call he will flat

Thats me puttinf myself in button shoes.

What do you think BB put in half of his stack with that he will fold if button ships it? Button is an aware player and probably knows if he ships it with a flush draw all he is doing is deterring me from putting more money in so shoving a draw is pointless. I suppose this gives him good reason to flat sets also so a good range for button is JJ, 66, 33, J10hh and nut flush draws and he probably has A2-A5s A10-AKs considering he has position and the price he was getting pre.

So

Button range: JJ, 66, 33, A2-A5s, A10-AKs, J10hh

BB range: JJ, QQ, AJhh-AKhh

Without a calc this looks like a GII spot

KdKc 43.42%

JJ,66,33,ATs+,A2s-A5s,JTs 30.50%

JJ-QQ,AJs+ 26.08%
 
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Aces2w1n

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My problem is its not headsup. And the avg hand strength needs to b stronger rule of thumb.

And ppl in every other hand say dont go broke with a paired hand... i mean headsup we ship but 3way its just tougher

U can name all the ranges weaker hands ... so you are facing a flush.... and then the other is 2pairs minimum... all the stats in the world wont change the fact we are beat


Best case jx hand and a flush draw but still hard to holdup


Could b picky and u didnt raise pre enough x4

Also the good player knows a lot of sb range would b really tight... if it was marginal hand or any doubt y put another cent in the pot
 
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To call and GII I only need ~30% equity and math says I have ~40% even if I am off a little on my ranges so I think getting it in is the right play.

but you know what! Screw ranges and math and that equity stuff!
 
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Aces2w1n

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Lol another aspect is...

Your good player does it mean weak or strength calling...

Thats ur answer there. If u think weak shove if strength fold

Use flopzilla?


And yeh i was going to say thinking of my training shove or fold it is cuz if we do flat and a brick comes and ppl gii then what

So thats right shoving makes sense if we want to continue
 
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IPlay

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Lol another aspect is...

Your good player does it mean weak or strength calling...

Thats ur answer there. If u think weak shove if strength fold

Use flopzilla?

I use PT4 Equity calc and I was unsure of what to think about this spot which is why I posted the hand and after talking to you and Scot and giving villain ranges the right play, although high variance is to GII here.
 
Aces2w1n

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Oh for those who dont know we have a thing here called relative position... even tho we are oop in the hand cuz our villain raised us we now have position.. just something ive learnt along the way.


Last thing tho we have to tighten good players range by calling knowing hes going to have to put everything in by riv
 
Aces2w1n

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Iplay thats if you have no reads on villain....

A default line
 
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A good player calling to fold i think not.
 
jozsef1990

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jes Got to feel this is a fold. For you to be good here they both pretty much have to have the bottom of their range which is flush draws IMO. For BB to have a flush draw here means that BTN is less likely to have one because of blockers. I think at least one of your opponents has a set. Tough laydown but one I'd make
 
Aces2w1n

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Sometimes, I have no clue what you are trying to say bud :p


Sry....

1. Do you think our good player is calling fishes raise intending to fold? Why would he call intending to giveup later streets? He's in the same situation as us and that's getting it in or folding right there. We know it's going to happen playing but which street who knows up to us.

2. The optimal play you said was the shove which was slightly marginal. We have to use the information given which scot and I did and we have a good player so to speak.

So a marginal +ev would have to be worth less knowing that our opponents range must be tighter.
 
Aces2w1n

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Also default line being something we fall back on when we are against unknowns.

We know we are good some of the time and bad occassionally. So default is shove.

Soon as we know our villains are decent regs or what not. We can sway from this and change it up.

Got it?


And remember we make profit from players mistakes.... Given this is a good player is he making a mistake? Doubtful... So you make the mistake and shove. And yep you got trapped.


Also another tell could be his timing to throw you off... generally someone taking time is extreme strength. Someone bluffing acts immediately if bad player.

All the time in the world 45 seconds to make a mistake???? Case closed.
 
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IPlay

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Sry....

1. Do you think our good player is calling fishes raise intending to fold? Why would he call intending to giveup later streets? He's in the same situation as us and that's getting it in or folding right there. We know it's going to happen playing but which street who knows up to us.

2. The optimal play you said was the shove which was slightly marginal. We have to use the information given which scot and I did and we have a good player so to speak.

So a marginal +ev would have to be worth less knowing that our opponents range must be tighter.

Right, I don't think he is intending to fold later, but as we spoke earlier, he should not be shoving sets or flush draws there because he wants me in the pot and knows if it doesn't go in now it is going in on the turn so why push me out if he has me crushed, or he has a nut draw? The thing about his range being tighter is that their is no 2 pair hands so only 9 combos beat us while he could still have AJs, QQ and flush draws.


Also default line being something we fall back on when we are against unknowns.

We know we are good some of the time and bad occassionally. So default is shove.

Soon as we know our villains are decent regs or what not. We can sway from this and change it up.

Got it?


And remember we make profit from players mistakes.... Given this is a good player is he making a mistake? Doubtful... So you make the mistake and shove. And yep you got trapped.


Also another tell could be his timing to throw you off... generally someone taking time is extreme strength. Someone bluffing acts immediately if bad player.

All the time in the world 45 seconds to make a mistake???? Case closed.

We do earn profit from other players making mistakes but that does not mean we can't make many when they are not making mistakes. Two people can play a hand the most optimal way vs each others range and someone will have more equity.

Oh and the timing thing, he could be trying to deceive me but I really think he just had a pretty tough decision to make here.
 
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