$25 NLHE 6-max: KK facing pf 5bet 150bb deep

Is this a case in which folding KK pf actually might make sense?

At the time of this hand, villain showed stats of 0/0 over 16 hands.

Full Tilt - $0.25 NL RUSH (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $25.10
MP: $36.48
Hero (CO): $38.54
BTN: $26.65
SB: $24.65
BB: $57.11

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has K:club: K:diamond:

fold, MP calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.00, fold, fold, BB raises to $2.75, fold, Hero raises to $8.60, BB raises to $57.11 and is all-in, Hero ???

folding QQ maybe here but not KK. Im shipping KK pre up to 200BB without a second thought with a player with no history,

Not worth a fold

If you can fold KK here correctly, your a better man then me. He could have QQ, AKs, AK. Probably not worth a fold here.

Flat the 3bet pre?

Get it in

Yes. You can never narrow an unknown down to just AA. I'm calling and happy about it.

Fold

The myth with getting it all in with Kings isn't always great. Of course in tournaments it's pretty standard, not sure in cash games espically when both are deep.

I think his stats show a fold too. The amount of times I've checked someones very low stats and I have kings and can't fold yet almost positive they have aces yet still call and tadaa they show aces, it's nothing but frustration.

It's kind of standard "get it all in with Kings" but hell, it's not always ideal, infact like I say many of times I've had kings, me and other players quite deep and you're quite sure they hold Aces and not comfortable getting it all in but still can't help it. Sure enough, you're right..

I think I'd fold here though to be honest, I'm sure you're beat.

LizaBuv said:

If you can fold KK here correctly, your a better man then me. He could have QQ, AKs, AK. Probably not worth a fold here.

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I don't think nits with these sort of stats are shoving with anything less than Kings like that. I know they are still quite small sample of 16 hands but 0/0 at 6 max? That smells so very much like Aces.

The thing is, I can't see this sort of player shoving A,K or Queens, let alone anything else here but kings or aces.

I don't know much about rush, but my experience with nits is that they play a very strict selection of hands, top 5% or even 3% - but they will get it in pre with all of them.

ramdeebam said:

I don't think nits with these sort of stats are shoving with anything less than Kings like that. I know they are still quite small sample of 16 hands but 0/0 at 6 max? That smells so very much like Aces.

The thing is, I can't see this sort of player shoving A,K or Queens, let alone anything else here but kings or aces.

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lol@ 16 hands being enough to classify someone as tight

mrmonkey said:

Is this a case in which folding KK pf actually might make sense?

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Nope.

Think u have to call. Over 16 hands you cant really put him on aces. He can do this with qq or aks. Maybe jacks who knows. But at these stakes you can't put people on aces.

bgomez89 said:

lol@ 16 hands being enough to classify someone as tight

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If someone hasn't played a single hand in 6 max for 16 hands or raised anything and willing to shove for deep stacks, you can be quite sure even holding kings that you could very likely be behind here.

I'm just giving my personal opinion anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if he turned over Aces here, I hardly doubt he would be doing this with worse.

16 hands isnt very many imo, ive played many times and not opened once in 16 times, theres a hundred reasons why you might of not opened in 16 hands, maybe the guy has just been a bit card dead, maybe when he got playable hands something happened infront of him which meant they werent playable, could easily be up against AK or QQ here

ramdeebam said:

If someone hasn't played a single hand in 6 max for 16 hands or raised anything and willing to shove for deep stacks, you can be quite sure even holding kings that you could very likely be behind here.

I'm just giving my personal opinion anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if he turned over Aces here, I hardly doubt he would be doing this with worse.

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Not atall. 16 hands is a negligable amount. sometimes when I start a cash game i'm doing something (making a sandwhich etc) so I play super tight for the first 10 - 15 hands. It helps to get stats on the other players and get some HH's to see whos' the maniac, who's the nit etc.
For all you know this player did the same for the first 12 hands and now he's starting to play properly. Even so a 5BAI is probably QQ+ at the loosest against an unknown at 25NL.
Either way i'm getting it in.

If the sample was 300 hands, I'd be OK with folding.

But even if he plays 20% of hands (average), then that's 20/100. Which is like 1/5, so he should only be playing 3/15 and its perfectly feasible he just haven't had a hand when you've seen him. Even then, I'm guessing it would be more around 10% in Rush, which is 1.5/15, not many...

In these situations I always think they must have aces but call anyway and they always do have aces. I am only playing 10nl so I would have expected people to show up with less but in my experience they rarely do. Everyone else on these boards seem to disagree. Maybe Im sitting at the wrong tables lol

watchtowel said:

In these situations I always think they must have aces but call anyway and they always do have aces. I am only playing 10nl so I would have expected people to show up with less but in my experience they rarely do. Everyone else on these boards seem to disagree. Maybe Im sitting at the wrong tables lol

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I used to think this too but maybe we just remember running into AA more, and maybe we forget about all the times we 3bet/4bet and the villain folds this is all money we're winning

yeah I know it should be quite standard to ship here, but I'm still not sure.

Would love to know what he actually did here.


OH Never mind, I just realized it was rush poker...I guess it's a shove then I never read things properly.

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

I've not read the other responses, but of course if he has AA it's -EV to call. However, it's (off the top of my head) 40% to call and against AA you have about 20%, so it's a bad call but still not an unmitigated disaster. Then there's AK, QQ, and the fact he's in the BB and sees you on a wider range (at least to begin with) and maybe there's a levelling thing going on? He's been folding his BB for a while now and he's had enough? I've seen 4bets fold to 5bets, because everyone at the table suspected the 4bet was light and was no doubt right. So all things considered, I call.

EDIT: and now I'll go and read why I'm wrong!

Oh, didn't notice it was rush, so you haven't been sitting at the same table for those 16 hands. Poop. Ignore my post

Interesting this thread has sparked a pretty lively discussion now, a couple weeks after the fact.

I 6-bet shoved, he turned up aces which held.

I agree that 16 hands isn't nearly enough, and that it's possible for villain to do this with QQ+/AK. In my experience though, I would say the probability of QQ is less likely than KK+, and it's 50/50 on AK whether unknown 5-bets it/gets it in or folds/flats.

In retrospect, in Rush, shoving KK in this spot is probably close to ev neutral IMO.

Now I wonder, at what stack size do you think it starts to become highly -ev vs. a relative unknown with no signs of spew? 200bb+? 300bb+?

I never shove A,K fully deep stacked in cash games pre-flop unless I know from good stats that the player is a donk who shoves any Ace..

Hell though, I thought you would of been up against aces Not saying it's still correct to fold, but I've folded Kings before on very few occasions like this with the same sort of stats and they showed Aces.