$25 NLHE 6-max: KK, 4bet pot, OOP, 500BB deep

IPlay

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PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: $15.76
BB: $39.40
UTG: $12.60
Hero (MP): $256.63
CO: $22.63
BTN: $125.72

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has K:diamond: K:club:

fold, Hero raises to $0.75, CO raises to $2.25, BTN calls $2.25, fold, fold, Hero raises to $8.65, fold, BTN calls $6.40

Flop: ($19.90, 2 players) 3:heart: 4:diamond: T:heart:
Hero checks, BTN bets $11.34, Hero calls $11.34

Turn: ($42.58, 2 players) 9:club:
Hero checks, BTN bets $26.22, Hero ???

Readless 25z on Bovada. Is it fair to say turn is a shove/fold spot? If we flat turn there is 318bb behinds going to river ~380bb pot. If I flat turn is there any rivers I can fold? If answer is no then turn should be shove/fold right? Is it safe to say my range is fairly face up as an overpair on the turn?

I don't cbet the flop because I don't want to face a raise and I don't think there is a worse hand I can get 3 streets of value this deep in a 4 bet pot so I really want to start pot controlling right away.

What range do you think villain is flatting in a 4 bet pot pre this deep? I assume villain is a reg since he is sitting at zone with a 500bb deep which isn't that easy to do for a fish unless they are on a serious heater.

I wish to summon the deep stacked boss Duggs himself! HALP!!

PS: I think I am going to start leaving zone when my stack is 250bbs+ to make spots like this much easier.
 
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Aces2w1n

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hmm playing a bit out of our comfort zone are we??? consider banking that amount if your playing scared.

...................................................
Probably would raise x4 or even x5 since we have players yet to act pre and would be OOP.
SPR is quite high so we can't justify getting stacks in especially with no reads. But we do want to draw value from QQ and JJ and draws.
....................................

As played it's a call and hopefully a brick comes on river and we value bet river. Since we are this deep we need to have some sort of pot control due to how you played the hand, if you raised more pre and check raised flop.. then we could consider jamming turn but yeh SPR was too high for this line imo.


...................................


looking at this more though.... Do we really think villain is calling with QJ pre? and having KK really shrinks his AK combo's ... So we can remove a lot of draws from his range.
 
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If you get scared playing a big pot on the flop, don't 4 bet pre. IMO just bet the flop.
 
IPlay

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Idk, since we are so deep and villain has position I can see him flatting QJs. I agree Aces, I do want to get better at deep stack play though but I should stick to around a 300bb max.

I did the math and I gave villain 19-1 implied odds pre which I think is a mistake. He probably would flat some QJs but also almost all pocket pairs 109s/J10s. Maybe I should have made it about $11.50 pre and then it will be easier to get it in post. He would also be getting 13 to 1 which makes calling to set mine/SC a mistake. Also brings the SPR from ~6 to ~4. Blasting a 5x 4 bet pre just seems weird though but maybe because I am so used to playing 100-200bb stacks.
 
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Really terrible spot. 500bb deep tbh I think I like flatting pre. When the BTN squeezes vs our UTG open, we really shouldn't have that much of a bluffing range anyway. So when we do 4-bet, our hand is pretty much face-up. Only reason I see to 4-bet is if we have a lot of bluffs in our range, we have history, and he will peel light with position.

A lot of things can go pretty badly if we 4-bet unless we flop the nuts. The top of our range is pretty much one pair on non K or A high boards. Pretty easy to get bluffed since I don't think we'd be comfortable stacking KK/AA for 500bb readless. I think we should also note that he's not only flatting most PP in this spot but also AA almost everytime if he's decent.

I like flatting because it keeps his range wider and lets him value bet worse post. If he has AA, then we're still going to lose money. But we get value from QQ/JJ/whatever random shit he might have tried to make a move with pre. And if CO flats, I don't really mind since he is 90bb deep. BTN should not be bluffing without strong equity vs our 3-bet calling range and CO's overcall.

I think 4-betting just lets him play perfectly against us. He can flat AA in position, setmine us, bluff us off the best hand, and fold his really junky hands that he spazzed out with pre. We'll always be capped to overpairs, while he can have anything really. I'm pretty sure having no 4-betting range in this spot might not be the most optimal play, but I think I prefer it.

Turn is never a check/shove. It's either x/fold, or you x/call to call off river on a blank or x/fold. He's either turning JJ-QQ or some PP into a bluff/spazzing out with air or has a set/AA. If he's bluffing, we want to let him keep bluffing. Shoving only folds out his bluffs and lets him continue with sets/AA. If you decide to x/jam turn, you should really x/c turn and almost all rivers instead. We lose the same amount from his sets/AA and make some money off his spaz bluffs.

I prefer 35% c-bet on flop. QQ will still peel a street, and we still have AA in our range so I don't think his bluff-raising frequency will be too high. As played, I probably just fold turn. If he's bluffing, good for him. We're going to be beat a good amount of times here, and I wouldn't want to stack off 500bb deep readless hoping he's running a bluff.

Interesting hand. I'd like to know what he had. I was actually in a similar spot where I had AA in a 4-bet pot ~300bb deep, and this guy kept firing off after I checked on Kxx. I folded, thinking he wouldn't bluff since I have AA/AK/KK in my range. Turned up with 1010 for a spaz bluff. I wonder if that was just a bad line by me or just a retarded bluff by him lol. Probably both. This was like 50NL zone almost a year ago.
 
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Romario2223

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with this hand I'll bet on the flop and turn and if No Aces and closed draws on thee river push
 
Figaroo2

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Lol, I'm not a great fan of the 4bet either, your hand would have been much better disguised by flatting which is a bit of what you need this deep.
Now some serious amounts of bb are going in because you pumped it up pre, you made your bed and now you are having to lie in it.
Put him on a range and don't chicken out just because it's deep, its a difficult spot but you can still win a massive hand here with a decent river card so for me it's difficult but not terrible spot.

Its a great run out for KK so far and he has all sorts of hands here, I reckon we are ahead here with at least 70% equity against a 4bet deep calling range of all pairs AK AQs AJs maybe even some QJs JTs. I wouldn't be giving his 60% barrels much credit here, he can do this with his full range and like you said he's built up a decent stack so you know he's capable.
There is simply no way I'm folding on that turn card.
So is a call or raise better on the turn?
Like Minh said if you shove you just push out all his bluffs, he might spazz gamble with suited heart overcards but that is a big gamble that most won't take, otherwise you are just isolating yourself against his sets.
So I think calling is he best way to nail him here.
I'm calling the turn and likely check calling his sorry ass down unless a heart or an ace comes, I'd have to look at the spr a bit closer if a brick comes as to whether to shove but mostly i'm letting him bluff it all off.
I won't be happy to see a J or a Q either but if he backs into something then so be it.
Calling the turn is opening his bluffing range wide open and he is going to leverage you here big time on the river, you know this when you just call but with us being so far in front of his range I'm expecting to call a lot on the end anyway.
Ideally I'm hoping for anything 7 or under, non heart, another 9 should be ok as well. If a non heart J or Q comes I'm gritting my teeth and calling on the end a lot here our KK blocks a lot of his straights here. Interesting hand.
 
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IPlay

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He also snap called the 3 bet pre and I would think he would think a little about 4 betting with AA and I think this is a fine spot to 4 bet but I should of went larger. I don't like flatting a 3 bet OOP against 2 villains with KK I feel like you guys are being kind of results oriented. I just can't see how flatting the 3 bet is higher EV then 4 betting.
 
Figaroo2

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So what were you going to do if you get 5 bet pre in this spot?
 
IPlay

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So what were you going to do if you get 5 bet pre in this spot?

I think I need to stop posting hands on Cardschat.

4 betting isn't a mistake in this hand, not 4 betting large enough is the mistake. Your response is kind of like saying "Limp 88 UTG because what are you going to do when you get 3 bet"

That's not how poker works, we are suppose to take highest EV lines not the easiest line. Granted I admit I didn't play this hand that well which is why I posted but to say 4 betting is a mistake is laughable. You are making it seem like villain cold 4 bet and we are 5 betting. 4 betting is 100% standard here.
 
Figaroo2

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I think I need to stop posting hands on Cardschat.

4 betting isn't a mistake in this hand, not 4 betting large enough is the mistake. Your response is kind of like saying "Limp 88 UTG because what are you going to do when you get 3 bet"

That's not how poker works, we are suppose to take highest EV lines not the easiest line. Granted I admit I didn't play this hand that well which is why I posted but to say 4 betting is a mistake is laughable. You are making it seem like villain cold 4 bet and we are 5 betting. 4 betting is 100% standard here.

I'm not saying its a mistake to 4 bet. IMO it just makes it more difficult to play oop.
 
duggs

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PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: $15.76
BB: $39.40
UTG: $12.60
Hero (MP): $256.63
CO: $22.63
BTN: $125.72

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has K<font color='red'>♦</font> K<font color='black'>♣</font>

fold, Hero raises to $0.75, CO raises to $2.25, BTN calls $2.25, fold, fold, Hero raises to $8.65, fold, BTN calls $6.40

Flop: ($19.90, 2 players) 3<font color='red'>♥</font> 4<font color='red'>♦</font> T<font color='red'>♥</font>
Hero checks, BTN bets $11.34, Hero calls $11.34

Turn: ($42.58, 2 players) 9<font color='black'>♣</font>
Hero checks, BTN bets $26.22, Hero ???

Readless 25z on Bovada. Is it fair to say turn is a shove/fold spot? If we flat turn there is 318bb behinds going to river ~380bb pot. If I flat turn is there any rivers I can fold? If answer is no then turn should be shove/fold right? Is it safe to say my range is fairly face up as an overpair on the turn?

I don't cbet the flop because I don't want to face a raise and I don't think there is a worse hand I can get 3 streets of value this deep in a 4 bet pot so I really want to start pot controlling right away.

What range do you think villain is flatting in a 4 bet pot pre this deep? I assume villain is a reg since he is sitting at zone with a 500bb deep which isn't that easy to do for a fish unless they are on a serious heater.

I wish to summon the deep stacked boss Duggs himself! HALP!!

PS: I think I am going to start leaving zone when my stack is 250bbs+ to make spots like this much easier.

Im no expert and im pretty out of practice but here goes

4bet seems ok, but we definitely need to be bluffing here, poster below basically said we shouldnt have a 4betting range which I think is way too narrow. I think we actually have more incentive to 4bet bluff since our continuation bets become much more effective with more leverage and he cant really 5bet us very wide at all. Like it even more with the flatter, tossing up sizing, but its definitely not too small, could argue for a bit bigger but im just nitpicking.

4bet range should be something like KK+/A2s/A3s/A4s/AKo/ATs maybe. If we want to get frisky we can throw in more bluffs but KQs AQs AKs AQo AJs JTs all QQ- all seem like fairly obvious flats, (with history could see an argument for value betting QQ/JJ/AK aswell but absent that im fine with this as a starting point.)

His cold calling 3bet range is probably something like 99-QQ halfcombos of KK/AA with some random suited connectors AQs/AJs/AKs/77+ thrown in sometimes if he is overadjusting for stack depths. But he should be 5betting some of those as a bluff and some of the AA for value.

when we get to the flop I think we are doing ok, if that range is accurate he has 5ish combos that beat us and 18 combos of bluff catchers and maybe 30 that whiffed completely. We dont want to put stacks in as the bettor here because he will fold too much I think.

betting range should look like AA/bluffs/ATs and our checking range should look like KK/any give ups. Thats fairly defined but that shouldnt matter when his range is weaker than ours.

x/c looks fine on the flop.

turn doesnt help him that much, although a card below 7 would have been better for our range. Its definitely not a jam/fold situation, much prefer a call/see what happens on the river. Jamming only forces him to play perfectly against us in what is a pretty polarised spot. I would call the turn and then fold river based on the fact that even good regs wont triple in a 4bet pot enough with deep stacks.

If i had to rank alternatives i would go

call/fold>>>>fold>> call>call>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>jam
 
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I also gave villain a narrower flatting range because he cold called a shallow stacks 3bet. even in position it cant be thaaaaat wide if he is competent
 
duggs

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If we look at it from villains perspective, if he is holding 33 on preflop and he considers flatting, these are the possible scenarios.

A) We fold he goes IP 90bb eff with an SPR 4 v a CO 3bet range. happens what approx 35% of the time I think.

B) We 4bet, CO jams, he folds (happens 3%/25% * his 5bet% which is likely about 40%) so 5% of the time

C) we 4bet CO folds he calls. he know has to setmine/bluff catch in a 4bet pot, he is deep and IP but again this only happens around 7% of the time

D) we call and he gets to set mine 3 way in a sort of deep pot, but we arent ever under setting him or putting lots of money in dead, and actually set over set him whenever lots of money goes in. happens 53% of the time.

*all math done in my head so might be off but you get the idea why im very sceptical villain has 33/44 in his range is he is a strong/competent/dec reg.
 
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Woops, read the hand wrong. It was like 3am. I thought BTN squeezed. Given that and since he snapcalled the 3-bet, we can take out almost all AA from his range. 4-betting KK should be fine here. Pick up dead money and pretty straightforward 4-bet for value. I'd have no 4-betting range if BTN squeezed. Lets him make more mistakes post, and we can make more mistakes & bigger ones OOP by 4-betting pre for reasons stated above. But given his coldcall of 90bb stack it should be more than fine to 4-bet KK/AA and some Axs, folding/calling the rest. If he tanked for a while with preflop call, that'd be a little worrisome though. I would always flat AA here fwiw.

I like check-call flop rather than c-betting. Also check-calling turn like Duggs said. I think river is more of a call than a x/fold. But I think he chickens out a lot OTR when we call down twice, so I think calling is only marginally +EV. He should really only have top set for value and very rarely 99.
 
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duggs

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Woops, read the hand wrong. It was like 3am. I thought BTN squeezed. Given that and since he snapcalled the 3-bet, we can take out almost all AA from his range. 4-betting KK should be fine here. Pick up dead money and pretty straightforward 4-bet for value. I'd have no 4-betting range if BTN squeezed. Lets him make more mistakes post, and we can make more mistakes & bigger ones OOP by 4-betting pre for reasons stated above. But given his coldcall of 90bb stack it should be more than fine to 4-bet KK/AA and some Axs, folding/calling the rest. If he tanked for a while with preflop call, that'd be a little worrisome though. I would always flat AA here fwiw.

I like check-call flop rather than c-betting. Also check-calling turn like Duggs said. I think river is more of a call than a x/fold. But I think he chickens out a lot OTR when we call down twice, so I think calling is only marginally +EV. He should really only have top set for value and very rarely 99.

Ill push back on this a bit, lets say BU squeezed, why do you have no 4betting range? im certainly 4betting some stuff there.

Also if you are check/calling AA aswell, does that make your entire range either x/c or x/f? we have alot of bluffs that want to barrel and a range advantage on this board?

playing OOP doesnt magically get easier just because the pot is smaller, lower SPRs actually decrease his edge against us.
 
Figaroo2

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I think I need to stop posting hands on Cardschat.
No you don't.... this is a really good hand to discuss I'm glad you posted it.

That's not how poker works, we are suppose to take highest EV lines not the easiest line.
Not sure I agree with this statement in all cases including this one.
Its also about not making big mistakes and there are enough BB on the line here to undo no doubt quite a long session's good work with a single error.
Pro golfers don't always take the highest EV shot available if the job can be done in a fashion less likely to result in ruin.

4 betting is 100% standard here.
As I said I'm not disagreeing I'm just asking you what you would have done if you had been 5bet here. Presumably you had some idea of what you were going to do.
Easy enough to gii against the 100bb guy as you would get to see what the button does but what about by the button say who initially decided to flat AA (someone like Minh) and then decided to re pop you.
 
Thinker_145

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I would play this hand almost exactly like you played. We were 3 bet by a 100BB stack not a 500BB so we don't need to make a larger 4 bet as that's just giving it away to the CO that we really got it.

Now that the BTN calls us I think check is fine on flop. There is no way you should fold the turn bet in my opinion, he could simply be betting to prevent you from betting the river.

I would fold to a sizable river bet as at that point it's just way too unlikely we are better. If it's a bluff then well played is all I can say to my opponent.

I personally would have done this.
Bet flop, check/call turn and fold the river if bet.
 
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Ill push back on this a bit, lets say BU squeezed, why do you have no 4betting range? im certainly 4betting some stuff there.

Also if you are check/calling AA aswell, does that make your entire range either x/c or x/f? we have alot of bluffs that want to barrel and a range advantage on this board?

playing OOP doesnt magically get easier just because the pot is smaller, lower SPRs actually decrease his edge against us.

We get BTN to make a lot more mistakes by flatting our entire range, and 4-betting allows him to make less mistakes given that he squeezes. And we will make bigger and more costly mistakes OOP. I think by 4-betting pre when he squeezes, we are giving him less opportunities to make mistakes. He just folds out all his bluffs and continues with PPs/AKs/AA. Him having most combos of AA postflop is also pretty bad for us. Readless I don't think a decent reg is often ever 5-betting AA here. I think that by being uncapped postflop, positional disadvantage should be negated a more.

His range when he snap coldcalls the 3-bet is pretty well defined (some PP/1010-QQ, some AQs/AKs). I think we can discount a lot of AA/KK from his range. So KK is pretty much a straightforward 4-bet for value. I think having a bluffing range in this spot readless is pretty bad. CO should be pretty strong here a decent amount, and even if he has JJ/QQ he probably just ships it in a good % of the time. He's 90bb deep. We also have almost zero fold equity against the BTN. The only thing he folds really is the small combos of AQs he may have called with pre. All PPs/AKs, which is like 90% of his range, is calling. So you're basically bloating the pot OOP with A high no kicker. Or getting shoved on by CO.

Meh, in this exact spot I wouldn't have a bluffing range. If he squeezed instead, I might have one. So yeah my range would just be x/f or x/c, except maybe AKhh.

I think being uncapped postflop negates a lot of his positional and skill advantage. It also lets him make more mistakes, especially with his bluffs and weaker overpairs. If we have almost all sets and all KK-AA, and some straights in our range, we can really mess with him postflop. IP I like having a much wider 4-betting range, but that's just me.
 
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Not sure I agree with this statement in all cases including this one.
Its also about not making big mistakes and there are enough BB on the line here to undo no doubt quite a long session's good work with a single error.
Pro golfers don't always take the highest EV shot available if the job can be done in a fashion less likely to result in ruin.

As I said I'm not disagreeing I'm just asking you what you would have done if you had been 5bet here. Presumably you had some idea of what you were going to do.
Easy enough to gii against the 100bb guy as you would get to see what the button does but what about by the button say who initially decided to flat AA (someone like Minh) and then decided to re pop you.

I agree about the not making big mistakes part too, especially since we're OOP. We have to play all 3 streets, whereas if we were in position, we could pretty much play only 2 streets whenever we want. But I'm totally fine with the 4-bet pre given reads.

Since IPlay mentioned he snapcalled the 3-bet, we can discount a lot of AA from his range. The chance that we get 5-bet by BTN is pretty slim. But if he does, I think it's just a fold readless. His range should be pretty narrow given CO's 90bb stack and 3-bet, and once he starts piling in money I doubt he shows up with spazzed bluffs like 99-QQ/AKo/AQs when our range should be super strong here. But even then, I don't think most tricky regs would be flatting the 3-bet to backraise our UTG 4-bet. I'm pretty sure they'd just flat again and let us hang ourselves. At least I would.
 
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We get BTN to make a lot more mistakes by flatting our entire range, and 4-betting allows him to make less mistakes given that he squeezes. And we will make bigger and more costly mistakes OOP. I think by 4-betting pre when he squeezes, we are giving him less opportunities to make mistakes. He just folds out all his bluffs and continues with PPs/AKs/AA. Him having most combos of AA postflop is also pretty bad for us. Readless I don't think a decent reg is often ever 5-betting AA here. I think that by being uncapped postflop, positional disadvantage should be negated a more.

Him continuing with this range PPs/AKs/AA in a 4bet pot makes him incredibly easy to abuse. If we fold out his bluffs thats just great for us if we have an appropriately balanced 4betting range.

I dont really see how we give him less opportunities to make mistakes.

We also dont really need AA/KK in our range to be uncapped in a squeezed 3bet pot, boards will alter our ranges on most runouts that we arent going to be in trouble v his range the vast majority of the time.

His range when he snap coldcalls the 3-bet is pretty well defined (some PP/1010-QQ, some AQs/AKs). I think we can discount a lot of AA/KK from his range. So KK is pretty much a straightforward 4-bet for value. I think having a bluffing range in this spot readless is pretty bad. CO should be pretty strong here a decent amount, and even if he has JJ/QQ he probably just ships it in a good % of the time. He's 90bb deep. We also have almost zero fold equity against the BTN. The only thing he folds really is the small combos of AQs he may have called with pre. All PPs/AKs, which is like 90% of his range, is calling. So you're basically bloating the pot OOP with A high no kicker. Or getting shoved on by CO.

CO 3bet an open, its hardly the strongest possible range we will ever play. I also dont see why we have zero fold equity against the button, I also dont see how the button wont be in a world of hurt if he never folds to our 4bet.

Meh, in this exact spot I wouldn't have a bluffing range. If he squeezed instead, I might have one. So yeah my range would just be x/f or x/c, except maybe AKhh.

We have a range advantage and a particularly polarised range at that, im not so sure giving up all those potential bluffs is a particularly good idea, when he has alot of bluff catchers in his range. AA blocks alot of his potential bluff candidates and none of his bluff catchers and ATs blocks his sets and slowplays, both seem like ideal betting hands, A4s/A5s also seem like bets.

I think AA is a bet and KK is a check because of the swing of the extra 6 combos in villains range, plus the blocking adjustments.

I think being uncapped postflop negates a lot of his positional and skill advantage. It also lets him make more mistakes, especially with his bluffs and weaker overpairs. If we have almost all sets and all KK-AA, and some straights in our range, we can really mess with him postflop. IP I like having a much wider 4-betting range, but that's just me.

Why is the KK/AA necessary for that to be true?
 
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Well my logic for the turn being shove or fold is because if we are putting semi bluffs such as QJs Axs etc we should shove the turn because we are ahead of his range. If he folds his semi bluffs, isn't that a good thing? If he has a semi bluff he probably has ~20% equity so him folding that equity and us scooping the pot now is fine.(Plus it would make my red line sexy :p ) If we think he doesn't have semi bluffs then we should just fold unless he is a complete maniac with an airball. Also who is to say he does fold his semi bluffs?

I do see the reasoning for flatting though but if we do flat turn and leave a PSB, massive PSB behind, what are we doing on what rivers? Wouldn't we have to call most rivers at this point? What rivers could we fold? Can we say we should fold on any heart river besides Kh? Can I bet/fold river about 1/3rd pot to get value from jj/qq hands that made it here?
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
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Thats a fair point, he will also have some pure airballs tho (or he should). You are kinda playing down the equity we can reap on the river tho. Folding to his bets and winning when he gives up has value, or calling his bluffs. Shoving v what is essentially a polarised range doesnt sit well with me.

We definitely dont HAVE to call a river bet. Never bet folding river either, we dont get called often enough and its not a large enough part of his range
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
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I agree calling turn and seeing river is best. I did end up folding turn because I assumed my range was pretty face up and that he was milking me and if I called turn I would have a hard time folding river. If I had more then 15 seconds to make a decision in Zone I probably would of ended up calling but that small time bank really killed me here.(Pretty sure I timed out but was for sure leaning towards a fold anyway.) My biggest takeaway from this hand is to not have 300bb+ stacks in a readless player pool until I get a little better at deepstacked play. Especially since the time to think is so limited it makes deepstacked play even harder.

I checked results 24 hours later, villain had Jh7h... :|
 
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