$25 NLHE 6-max: JJ vs. WTF backraise by limper

Villain seems like a standard microtag, maybe a tad nitty through 40 hands I have on him. Nothing else remarkable about him. Relevant game flow: If anyone had been out of line this session it was me, and the hand immediate to this I 3-bet his button open with KK and he folded.

Should we make note that his screen name is AceKingNL?

If he had simply limped UTG and done this I would fold pretty damn quickly.

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($23.79)
CO ($25)
BTN ($32.36)
Hero (SB) ($30.03)
BB ($25.15)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is SB J:spade: J:heart:
UTG calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.75, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.50, CO raises to $5.55

baudib1 said:

Should we make note that his screen name is AceKingNL?

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Nay, we should ignore that as hard as we can!

Anyway this is a really silly spot, I'd be inclined to shove actually. UTG should fold adding dead money. CO... I think his play makes more sense with a medium pair (or sth like AJ, KQs) than with QQ-AA, AK. Moreover, I think we are ahead of the range that he might put us on.

Folding is also fine though, but I think I would need a more specific read for that.

Medium pp almost always ime. He's putting you on AK! Get the money in imo.

Does it change his range if I'm on the button?

Do microtags overlimp in position?

Ship the nickles, and no his range doesn't change if you're on the button. This guy is an idiot who has decided that 88 is good enough to stack off with.

yay I jammed

but he had KK

but

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($23.79)
CO ($25)
BTN ($32.36)
Hero (SB) ($30.03)
BB ($25.15)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is SB J:spade: J:heart:
UTG calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.75, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.50, CO raises to $5.55, Hero goes all-in $30.03, UTG folds, CO calls $19.45

Flop: J:club: 8:diamond: 5:club: ($57.03, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: 8:club: ($57.03, 2 players, 1 all-in)

River: A:diamond: ($57.03, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $57.03
CO shows
K:heart: K:club:
Hero shows
J:spade: J:heart:

Hero wins $54.43 (net +$24.40)

UTG lost $1.75
CO lost $25

And you made a note right?

Solid trap IMO, nothing you can do without notes

yeah his play still makes no sense to me. if i have a real hand i'm 3-betting him anyway and we still get it in (I assume that default stacking JJ+/AK 5-handed for 100 BBs is standard for everyone).

honestly I don't see this with small-med pairs tbh. Maybe AQ, but seriously I see monsters a lot here.

I think it's completely different from an actual backraise, in which case I'm snap-shoving, but yeah...I think this is actual strength. He's invested way less to see a flop and has little reason to spazz out. When someone calls a raise, they feel way more committed to the pot...

If he's a fish I'm never folding, but otherwise I'm definitely not really happy about stacking.

i agree with chuck

I think when someone calls a raise or 3-bet cold, gets 3/4bet then shoves, is more likely to see random spaz like AT/88 than this spot.

None of us are ever really happy about shoving JJ into someone who, as you say has been nitty, and showed sense just the hand before.

I would have flatted his reraise personally, seen the flop, then no problem shoving, and he still might come along, as he most likely puts you on a big ace or maybe even AJ, or Jx. Remember he only has those same 40 hands on you.

Net results are the same, but I don't have a clue, or the luck, and would never have got the set to fall on the flop.....

WVHillbilly said:

Medium pp almost always ime. He's putting you on AK! Get the money in imo.

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c9h13no3 said:

Ship the nickles, and no his range doesn't change if you're on the button. This guy is an idiot who has decided that 88 is good enough to stack off with.

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Both of you were so wrong.

This was an easy fold IMO.

Why were they wrong?

ChuckTs said:

Why were they wrong?

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Results ldo.

Ya but hero hit a set, shouldn't that come into the equation?

Serves him for trying to slow play KK. Actually the way he played it seems more AA than KK.

As far as your play, You didn't post stats but if you felt like he was a Nitty TAG you would have to assume a pretty narrow 3-bet range. AA-JJ, AK, AQs (3.76 %) and you are crushed by that range. JJ OOP vs 3 bet in a Multiway pot is an easy fold, IMO. I have learned that without a real history that shows 3betting range that QQ, JJ & AK are folds when OOP to a 3bet. Otherwise you have to think about flatting the top of your range and coming up with elaborate post flop scenarios. The problem with flatting with JJ is you could flop an overpair and be up against a bigger Overpair so really what you are doing is set-mining in a 3bet pot which seems -EV as even when you hit you need to manuver their stack which maybe hard to do vs IP AK that whiffed.

ChuckTs said:

Ya but hero hit a set, shouldn't that come into the equation?

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Not really. The money was in before hero hit his set, so that notion is moot.

He got lucky here. I think hero could have achieved the same results safer.

If he calls the Reraise rather than shoving he gets to evaluate the situation, which obviously would call for checking the flop, allowing villain to raise, whereby hero reraises and the money probably gets all in anyway, but with a larger margin of safety/comfort than the 'Let's shove and Pray' PF shove.

dj11 said:

Not really. The money was in before hero hit his set, so that notion is moot.

He got lucky here. I think hero could have achieved the same results safer.

If he calls the Reraise rather than shoving he gets to evaluate the situation, which obviously would call for checking the flop, allowing villain to raise, whereby hero reraises and the money probably gets all in anyway, but with a larger margin of safety/comfort than the 'Let's shove and Pray' PF shove.

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Who's to say the jack still comes on the flop if he calls?

So, dj11 - can you not fold jacks preflop?

dj11 said:

Not really. The money was in before hero hit his set, so that notion is moot.

He got lucky here. I think hero could have achieved the same results safer.

If he calls the Reraise rather than shoving he gets to evaluate the situation, which obviously would call for checking the flop, allowing villain to raise, whereby hero reraises and the money probably gets all in anyway, but with a larger margin of safety/comfort than the 'Let's shove and Pray' PF shove.

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Chuck was joking. You really think that he would be results oriented? That's the domain of the Falcon fan.

Also are you really advocating playing a potentially 3-way $16 pot from OOP with JJ and ~$19 effective left behind? You can argue folding or shoving but calling is horrible.

WVHillbilly said:

Chuck was joking. You really think that he would be results oriented? That's the domain of the Falcon fan.

Also are you really advocating playing a potentially 3-way $16 pot from OOP with JJ and ~$19 effective left behind? You can argue folding or shoving but calling is horrible.

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With JJ, yes! It's a WAWB situation, and I'd prefer to exert some control, if possible. It's possible UTG reraises, and I'd probably still follow, but if I can exert any control, again, I will try.

Seems to me that in a 6 max game, most folks sort of make up their minds fast on how far they will take each situation. In this situation I'd feel good shoving postflop without overcards flopping, or, like in this case I flop big.

But like Chuck says, he feels monsters lurk in the muddy waters, and I too fear them. So I vote for control, if possible.


But then I'm not very good at ring.........

And yes, I do muck JJ to over active boards every now and then. Even after I have raised to open the pot. That's what my stats on players tell me to do. Damn, they been right a whole bunch.

I would never ever call with JJ in this spot, or really any hand...but esp. TT-QQ type hands, it's just never going to work out OOP.


But how do you figure it's WA/WB preflop?