$25 NLHE 6-max: JJ OOP, 3bet pot, low flop vs reg

bgomez89 · Dec 6, 2010

Villain is a 19/15/48afq over 119 hands. His fold to 3bet says 60% but i cant find over how many hands but its probably not alot. Should I be cbetting this turn? Honestly, I think the only worse hand that calls me on the flop is AK.

PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $63.18
CO: $30.59
BTN: $36.77
Hero (SB): $40.61
BB: $25.18

Hero posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has J:diamond: J:heart:

UTG raises to $1.00, fold, fold, Hero raises to $3.50, fold, UTG calls $2.50

Flop: ($7.25, 2 players) 3:club: 6:spade: 6:heart:
Hero bets $4.50, UTG calls $4.50

Turn: ($16.25, 2 players) T:diamond:
Hero ???

TylerN · Dec 6, 2010

77-99 maybe?

bgomez89 · Dec 6, 2010

do regs really call 3bets with those?

TylerN · Dec 6, 2010

i don't see why they don"t but idk cause i don't play at that level. Do u think they do?

ChuckTs · Dec 6, 2010

If you're not expecting TT- to flat pf, why are you 3betting?

Pothole · Dec 7, 2010

Your not taking into account the situation.
1/ he is the table big stack
2/ your only looking at what his worst maybe
3/ he raised UTG
19/14/58 ? you rely too much on PT or some other cheat mode.
Look at what beats you, 6 anything, 33, QQ, KK AA, even 45 gives him 8 outs.and with 16 cards out, ur not exactly a fav.
plus, every book tells you to reraise a HU sb raise.

He could also be a big bank player, just droppin down for some fun.

c9h13no3 · Dec 7, 2010

Pothole said:
19/14/58 ? you rely too much on PT or some other cheat mode.

Congrats, now everything you say pretty much from now on carries ZERO credibility. online poker is rigged too, right?

TylerN · Dec 7, 2010

Pothole said:
Your not taking into account the situation.
1/ he is the table big stack
2/ your only looking at what his worst maybe
3/ he raised UTG
19/14/58 ? you rely too much on PT or some other cheat mode.
Look at what beats you, 6 anything, 33, QQ, KK AA, even 45 gives him 8 outs.and with 16 cards out, ur not exactly a fav.
plus, every book tells you to reraise a HU sb raise.

He could also be a big bank player, just droppin down for some fun.

u really think he is going to be having 54 or 6 anything in this spot? raise utg then call reraise oop?

vanquish · Dec 7, 2010

Pothole said:
Your not taking into account the situation.
1/ he is the table big stack
2/ your only looking at what his worst maybe
3/ he raised UTG
19/14/58 ? you rely too much on PT or some other cheat mode.
Look at what beats you, 6 anything, 33, QQ, KK AA, even 45 gives him 8 outs.and with 16 cards out, ur not exactly a fav.
plus, every book tells you to reraise a HU sb raise.

He could also be a big bank player, just droppin down for some fun.

wtf?

bgomez89 · Dec 7, 2010

ChuckTs said:
If you're not expecting TT- to flat pf, why are you 3betting?

because i blindly follow what i read and i've read that we should 3bet JJ for value

Sysvr4 · Dec 7, 2010

bgomez89 said:
Turn: ($16.25, 2 players) T<font color='red'>♦</font>
Hero ???

Bets and is willing to get his stack in if Villain decides to go crazy with 77-99, AK-ATs, etc. This is almost never AA-QQ with a TAG regular, so you're only really worried about TT, and if he hit the 2 outer you pay him off.

ChuckTs · Dec 7, 2010

bgomez89 said:
because i blindly follow what i read and i've read that we should 3bet JJ for value

Exactly.

Think about how your opponent reacts to your range, and take the most appropriate action.

JJ basically doesn't do well in 3bet/4bet wars unless your opponent is extremely aggressive. Punch some ranges into pokerstove and see how it fares.

I don't generally stack JJ in my 200nl games for ex.; it's more of a flatting hand most of the time, barring some aggro bvb or btn/bb type battles. The exception for 3betting would be against someone who doesn't 4bet too often, but often flats. ie, a fish or a bad regular.

c9h13no3 · Dec 7, 2010

Sysvr4 said:
Bets and is willing to get his stack in if Villain decides to go crazy with 77-99, AK-ATs, etc.

If that's his range, shouldn't we check the turn?

bgomez89 · Dec 7, 2010

ChuckTs said:
Exactly.

Think about how your opponent reacts to your range, and take the most appropriate action.

JJ basically doesn't do well in 3bet/4bet wars unless your opponent is extremely aggressive. Punch some ranges into pokerstove and see how it fares.

I don't generally stack JJ in my 200nl games for ex.; it's more of a flatting hand most of the time, barring some aggro bvb or btn/bb type battles. The exception for 3betting would be against someone who doesn't 4bet too often, but often flats. ie, a fish or a bad regular.

well if most villain's won't 4bet anything but QQ+(for example) at 25nl shouldn't i be inclined to 3bet here?

ChuckTs · Dec 7, 2010

If that's the case but they never flat anything worse than JJ, what should your plan be with JJ? QQ? KK/AA? AK?

(I'm not saying they do, but if in theory they don't flat TT- (or suited connectors or w/e) to 3bets, then 3betting JJ serves no purpose)

What would your plan be with the rest of your range?

In short, would you be 3betting for value lots, or as a bluff lots against this type of opponent?

Pascal-lf · Dec 7, 2010

Pothole said:
Your not taking into account the situation.
1/ he is the table big stack
2/ your only looking at what his worst maybe
3/ he raised UTG
19/14/58 ? you rely too much on PT or some other cheat mode.
Look at what beats you, 6 anything, 33, QQ, KK AA, even 45 gives him 8 outs.and with 16 cards out, ur not exactly a fav.
plus, every book tells you to reraise a HU sb raise.

He could also be a big bank player, just droppin down for some fun.

Please don't post strategy, people might take you seriously

bgomez89 · Dec 7, 2010

ChuckTs said:
In short, would you be 3betting for value lots, or as a bluff lots against this type of opponent?

wow i dont know, guess i never thought about what i expect people to call my 3bets with when I have jacks i just know my plan is:

3bet JJ all the time
All fold: meh, oh well I made some money
One call: Alright, lets take it down on the flop with a cbet
Cbet works: yay
Cbet fails: FREAK OUT

so i guess in a way it sounds like ive been 3betting as a bluff

ChuckTs · Dec 7, 2010

Yeah I think that's a common theme among struggling micro players. They 3bet because they think 'big pair', but they don't stop to think why they're doing it.

And no, you haven't been 3bet bluffing, you've been over-repping your hand's strength relative to your opponent's. To be a bluff, we'd have to fold out QQ+, which as we know never happens.

bgomez89 · Dec 7, 2010

:adore: dude, after the whole blackout thing(if it happens), teach me

timboslice4 · Dec 7, 2010

WSOP13 said:
u really think he is going to be having 54 or 6 anything in this spot? raise utg then call reraise oop?

exactly:hmmmm:

Sysvr4 · Dec 8, 2010

c9h13no3 said:
If that's his range, shouldn't we check the turn?

Any deny our villain the golden opportunity to make a bad call or stack off with an inferior holding or draw? What am I missing?

Sysvr4 · Dec 8, 2010

ChuckTs said:
If that's the case but they never flat anything worse than JJ, what should your plan be with JJ? QQ? KK/AA? AK?

(I'm not saying they do, but if in theory they don't flat TT- (or suited connectors or w/e) to 3bets, then 3betting JJ serves no purpose)

I agree that this is the proper analysis for 3-betting (or just betting for that matter) with any hand, but if your opponents are only flatting with >JJ, your game selection needs some serious work. This has not been my experience at all, but rather that moron villains will flat with a vast range of inferior holdings, making JJ a very profitable 3-bet in general.

ChuckTs · Dec 8, 2010

Sysvr4 said:
I agree that this is the proper analysis for 3-betting (or just betting for that matter) with any hand, but if your opponents are only flatting with >JJ, your game selection needs some serious work. This has not been my experience at all, but rather that moron villains will flat with a vast range of inferior holdings, making JJ a very profitable 3-bet in general.

Yep, agreed completely. My posts were with the assumption that hero's reads were accurate w.r.t how often villain has 99- here.

I'd be pretty surprised if regs folding 99- was the case the majority of the time though.

c9h13no3 · Dec 8, 2010

Sysvr4 said:
Any deny our villain the golden opportunity to make a bad call or stack off with an inferior holding or draw? What am I missing?

You think its more likely he shoves the turn over a bet with that range, or that he bets it when we check to him and his 48% AFq?

Sysvr4 · Dec 8, 2010

c9h13no3 said:
You think its more likely he shoves the turn over a bet with that range, or that he bets it when we check to him and his 48% AFq?

With only 119 hands on him, who can say? I sure like betting when there is some doubt about a question like this though.

I think he makes a bad call a lot more often than either of the above, actually.

$25 NLHE 6-max: JJ OOP, 3bet pot, low flop vs reg

bgomez89

Resident Thugmaster

TylerN

Kool-Aid & Frozen Pizza

bgomez89

Resident Thugmaster

TylerN

Kool-Aid & Frozen Pizza

ChuckTs

Legend

Pothole

Legend

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

TylerN

Kool-Aid & Frozen Pizza

vanquish

Legend

bgomez89

Resident Thugmaster

Sysvr4

Rock Star

ChuckTs

Legend

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

bgomez89

Resident Thugmaster

ChuckTs

Legend

Pascal-lf

Legend

bgomez89

Resident Thugmaster

ChuckTs

Legend

bgomez89

Resident Thugmaster

timboslice4

Enthusiast

Sysvr4

Rock Star

Sysvr4

Rock Star

ChuckTs

Legend

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

Sysvr4

Rock Star

About CardsChat

Our Community

Our Site