$25 NLHE 6-max: How did I play these loosing pocket KK?

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ThoughtsOuttaSeason

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Hi, anyone have advice how to play KK in this situation? The low starting bet is what I normally make with this kind of hand UTG, and is pretty much my standard bet when I'm 1st in the pot anyway. I figure if someone raises, I can reraise and I get more information this way. Maybe should have been more aggressive after the flop? The villain is pretty good player. Better than me anyway I think. So I was cautious. Plus seemed like he really had an A. Probably Ah and another h. Thanks in advance.

$.25 NLHE
SB: $13.25
BB: $46.71
UTG (HERO KhKs): $38.05
CO: $69.62
BTN: $25.00

Pre Flop: ($0.35)
UTG raises to $0.75, 3 folds, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.60) 8h 4h Ac (2 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $1.14, BB raises to $3.70, UTG calls $2.56

Turn: ($9.00) 6c (2 players)
BB bets $4.27, UTG folds
 
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MinhANguyen

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Check flop, call turn bet. Fold river unimproved. I don't know why you are c-betting KK here. I think too many players c-bet/bet to "see where they are at." This is a losing play, and keeping their range wider and bluff-catching instead is more +EV. Most people aren't going to barrel twice on turn and river and try to rep an A against an UTG opening range. You also have the 2nd nut BDFD, so check. If you are c-betting 100% of your range here, it's pretty profitable to bluff-raise you with ATC.

Fwiw I check some A hands sometimes here as well like A10s/AJo/AJs. The board is not that wet, and our hand doesn't need that much protection. People also generally take stabs at pots a decent amount when you check, so you need to have some medium-strength/strong hands in your checking range to make up for the times you check back KK/QQ. And I'm not sure why you are calling flop. The A hits your UTG opening range super hard, and he is still check-raising you. I wouldn't be surprised to see only value hands like 44/88/A8s/A4s here at 25NL.
 
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ThoughtsOuttaSeason

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Lol I cbet because I don't really know how to play poker yet. I guess because KK "looks good" preflop and I assumed he wouldn't bet if he didn't have an A. But its true, for some reason I hadn't considered he could easily have picked up a set. So I'm starting to realize I cbet much too often. Posting hands here is already helping alot as I'm realizing I don't know why I'm making half the moves I make and am starting to see what the better options are so thank you.
 
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CRStals

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I actually find, and maybe I'm in the minority, but checking the flop tends to induce the bet on the turn because they'll rep the A when they don't have it because they don't think you have it. I don't play this high yet, but reading the player is just as important as reading your cards and if the BB is a good player, they'll pick up on that immediately. If the board doesn't get better, they'll bet you out. Your read on them now has to tell you if you're good or not.
 
TimovieMan

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Check the flop and try to see a cheap showdown.

Betting sets you up to get raised, and generally only folds the hands you beat while keeping in those you don't. Checking back means you'll pay off his A-hands, but it also lets him value-town himself with his weaker pocket pairs which he might think are good
 
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BPEPFPDP

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Bet with KK on A flop kamikadze move) unless you have some special reads on viilain, but mb not so bad rep A who knows... i'd prefer played more passive with dat board structure and probably fold to checkr.
 
MediaBLITZ

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Yes, KK is a great looking hand - but remember this "The flop changes everything." In this case the very thing you did not want to see appeared - an A - which probably makes you 2nd best as anyone in the hand with you will be there because they either have a pair, or an A. This is what you have to figure out. You can either c-bet to see what happens, and as was pointed out possibly throw chips away, or you can check and then have to figure out do they have an A or a set or should you get out. It comes down to playing the player. All comes along with more experience.
 
es530

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Hi, anyone have advice how to play KK in this situation? The low starting bet is what I normally make with this kind of hand UTG, and is pretty much my standard bet when I'm 1st in the pot anyway. I figure if someone raises, I can reraise and I get more information this way. Maybe should have been more aggressive after the flop? The villain is pretty good player. Better than me anyway I think. So I was cautious. Plus seemed like he really had an A. Probably Ah and another h. Thanks in advance.

$.25 NLHE
SB: $13.25
BB: $46.71
UTG (HERO KhKs): $38.05
CO: $69.62
BTN: $25.00

Pre Flop: ($0.35)
UTG raises to $0.75, 3 folds, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.60) 8h 4h Ac (2 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $1.14, BB raises to $3.70, UTG calls $2.56

Turn: ($9.00) 6c (2 players)
BB bets $4.27, UTG folds

Nice fold
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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For sure don't bet the flop and if you do don't call the raise.
 
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bmfahy

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You were done on the flop

Fold the KK's when raised. Especially with lots of players in the hand and Ace on the flop. Perhaps put a feeler bet out there when in early position after the flop. If you get raised, fold!
I consider a 'full house' beaten by 'quads' a 'bad beat' everything else is just poker.
 
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JKo2theQQ

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Personally, I don't mind cbetting these flops once in a while in the right situation. This is actually one of those spots. You are in position, you were the opening raise preflop, and you are against only 1 opponent. The preflop raise puts the ace right in the middle of your range. Since you are in position, if your flop bet gets called, you can check behind on the turn and usually get to the river fairly cheaply. However, in this spot you should be folding to the check/raise 99% of the time. Given your actions preflop and on the flop your opponent must give you credit for an ace and he is still unafraid. Alarm bells should be going off. He has 2 pair or a set here most of the time. Gotta throw this one away.
 
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6bet me

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I'm going to go against the general consensus and say that I don't hate the Cbet.

The reason I don't hate the Cbet is that it achieves the following things:

1) Makes you more difficult to read. By checking this flop, you're basically telling your opponent that you have neither an Ace, nor a set, nor a flush draw, nor a gutshot (straight draw), since those hands will be Cbetting this flop 99% of the time. This makes it very easy for your opponent to range you and he could easily just bet/bet the turn and river with ATC to take you off your hand (how comfortable are you calling a pot-sized turn bet, followed by a pot-sized river bet, especially if a third heart comes out? If I was the villain, I would be doing that to you with ATC once you check back the flop).

2) It brings more money in the pot the times when you turn/river a set (you might think that this is extremely unlikely, but it does still make a difference).

3) It protects you from your opponent turning/rivering a set (again, you might think that this is extremely unlikely, but it does still make a difference, especially when the villain has a hand like 99 that otherwise would just check/fold the flop).

4) It allows you to get more value the times when you do have a hand here, since your opponent will respect your Cbets less.

Once I get check-raised, however, I'm folding here. The villain is almost always going to have a hand in the range of: {44, 88, A4dd, A4ss, A8dd, A8ss, Axhh, 65hh, 75hh, 76hh}. He can't even have a hand like KQhh because you're blocking Kh.
This means that more than 80% of his check-raising range beats you (even his Axhh semi-bluffs beat you) and you have very little equity the times when you're behind, so it's best to just fold.
 
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MinhANguyen

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1) If you are only checking weak/medium strength hands here, you do not have a balanced checking range. If you have a balanced checking range, your opponent cannot profitably barrel turn and river with ATC. If you are c-betting this board 99% of the time, others can exploit you by check-raising ATC, even vs your UTG open where you have a ton of big Ace hands in your open-raising range.

2) We bet for value or as a bluff. Betting to build a pot is not a reason to bet.

3) We want inferior hands to stay in the pot. A decent amount of players lead the turn with hands like 77/99-1010/pair of 8s and will almost always call a turn bet, but might check-fold to a flop c-bet since the A smashes our UTG opening range.

4) Again, this shouldn't be a problem if we have a balanced checking range.
 
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TheBigFinn

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It sucks to get KK and and see an ace of the flop. There are two questions, "What is the BB's preflop call range" and "What are you trying to do with your C Bet?"

If he is calling you wide and doesn't have an ace or trips he is likely folding everything anyway, so there is no point in cbeting. If he is calling tight, he has more aces in his range and has the ability to check call and bluff on later streets. Check and see another card.

Check/call the turn unless improved and fold to a second bet on the river.
 
Figaroo2

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I'm going with the check brigade not every time but usually, the reason is because the "better player" has decided to play this hand giving away both position and initiative. That's pretty dull at the best of times and imo usually means he's playing something speculative here like most pairs right up to jacks. I wouldn't call with many aces in the bb for fear of domination by the utg range. Most people will call with hands like AQs AJs of course but its going to be mostly pairs setmining. At best there is only a 1 in 11 chance of running into Ahxh here.

Sure you can cbet and when he whiffs as he mostly will you win his 3bb well done.
It is much more deceptive to check and as Minh points out even utg ranges need to check some aces here, this to avoid exactly what the last poster makes at his point 1. If you have history and the bb knows utg is capable of checking back an ace then that makes it dull for the bb to fire both turn and river unless he has a strong ace or better.
Checking is the only way we're getting another bet out of the bb here when he whiffs. Mostly you will have his pairs beaten and he will only have 2 outs.
Experienced players use a bit of GTO and this is a classic area for where it's useful. It's also a spot where at 25nl utg is rarely getting more than 1 street of value so which street you get it on is less relevant.
Also in the background is Small hand small pot and 2nd pair on the flop is a smaller hand.
 
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lukeellul92

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Check flop, call turn bet. Fold river unimproved. I don't know why you are c-betting KK here. I think too many players c-bet/bet to "see where they are at." This is a losing play, and keeping their range wider and bluff-catching instead is more +EV. Most people aren't going to barrel twice on turn and river and try to rep an A against an UTG opening range. You also have the 2nd nut BDFD, so check. If you are c-betting 100% of your range here, it's pretty profitable to bluff-raise you with ATC.

Fwiw I check some A hands sometimes here as well like A10s/AJo/AJs. The board is not that wet, and our hand doesn't need that much protection. People also generally take stabs at pots a decent amount when you check, so you need to have some medium-strength/strong hands in your checking range to make up for the times you check back KK/QQ. And I'm not sure why you are calling flop. The A hits your UTG opening range super hard, and he is still check-raising you. I wouldn't be surprised to see only value hands like 44/88/A8s/A4s here at 25NL.


You really need to read this post and take it in, this is invaluable.

Checking is definitely a better option. if the heart comes you have way more equity (you can't put your opponent on the nut flush draw specifically).

Fold the river to an unimproved hand like everyone else has said, but checking to the turn and paying a turn bet is the perfect way to employ pot control.

Yeah you have a really good starting hand, but when you get Overcards etc to high pairs (JJ,QQ,KK) you need to employ pot control. Don't get too excited, you'll win more then you'll lose with this hand in the long term, you just need to play it properly and known when to be aggressive and know when to go into crowd control mode.
 
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