$25 NLHE 6-max: Flop top set in multiway 3bet pot

IPlay

IPlay

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PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 205.6 BB
SB: 218.48 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 18.52, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, hands: 58)
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 94.8 BB (VPIP: 35.71, PFR: 7.14, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)
MP: 102.68 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
CO: 118.32 BB (VPIP: 46.15, PFR: 1.92, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 55)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has T:diamond: T:club:

fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, Hero calls 3 BB, fold, BB raises to 12 BB, CO calls 9 BB, Hero calls 9 BB

Flop: (36.4 BB, 3 players) T:heart: 9:spade: 7:diamond:
BB bets 20.52 BB, CO calls 20.52 BB, Hero ???
 
M

MinhANguyen

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I never ever min-raise, but I think this is a spot where the min-raise might work out pretty nicely. When we min-raise here, it probably looks like we're on a draw, or are trying to "see where we are at" with a lone ten. The BB and CO almost always have an overpair here. I think if we min-raise, the BB is going to jam, and the CO is probably going to call. I think if we raise huge, it looks way too strong. The BB might end up folding, since he has the CO to act behind him and should really be worried about us having a set since we overcalled. Or the BB is going to jam over us, and the CO is going to fold, fearing a bigger overpair or us flopping a set. When we min-raise, it might look like we'll get away from a jam, and there's a higher chance the BB will jam, and a higher chance the CO will come along if the BB jams.

We do not want to flat here. Even though there are no flush draws, there are so many action killers on the turn that might prevent one or both of them from stacking off.
 
Figaroo2

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I'm raising here looking to gii on the flop. Due to stack sizes any more than 50 is a shove so yeah min raise 40-50 shove all turns.
 
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hffjd2000

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In this kind of situition, I usually lose and so dont want to happen again.

I'll go to the max spectrum.

I would think for a while and reraise him all in.
 
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That type of thinking is results oriented, and will drastically decrease your potential winrate drastically if you let it affect your preflop/postflop decisions. We don't get nutted hands very often, so when we do, we need to maximize our profits. If you're uncomfortable losing a BI trapping with the effective nuts and being afraid you'll get sucked out on by a hand that has 0-15% equity against you, then you shouldn't be playing at the limits you're playing at.
 
IPlay

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Doesn't mean raising look stronger then shoving? I think with the SPR here the BB has to worry about CO rather I minraise or not. Are we ever flatting here? I personally like to flat sets but this board is kind of coordinated. I'm not worried about being sucked out on, I am worried about a scare card pushing off villains like a J, 8 or maybe even an A if they hold QQ, KK or JJ themselves.(I doubt AK cbets here) Also, most overcards are bad for me if they come and BB bets again.
 
Figaroo2

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Min raising looks strong but also gives very good odds to continue. Lets say the BB has AA KK here, when its you to bet the flop the pot is 77 BB and he has 70 behind. Sure you can shove all in here and if I was in the BB getting check raised all in on that board by a decent player my premium pair is hitting the muck. You are making his decision easy.
If you raise 45bb the pot is 122 and its costing him 25bb getting nearly 5-1+ to make sure you aren't bluffing and you could still have QQ JJ and be doing this here which he beats. A lot of players will call .
On the end if say one calls the pot is 147bb ish we put him all in and he is being offered betting his last 45 to win 190. Now hes thinking you might have JJ QQ AT and doesnt have to be right very often.
 
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IPlay

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Great points Fig, and the fish is more likely to call with a lot of hands to a min raise.

Thoughts on flatting flop?
 
Figaroo2

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Great points Fig, and the fish is more likely to call with a lot of hands to a min raise.
Thoughts on flatting flop?
Well as was pointed out a J or 8 giving four to a straight is going to kill the action and as might an Ace if he has KK or an A or K if he has QQ.
We are ahead now, its a 3 bet pot there won't be any straights out there I'm not hanging around slow playing. I saw a great quote from Alan Cunningham. "If you think you have the best hand you should usually be putting money into the pot"
simple but effective, the maths of poker states we bet with our value hands.for the best EV.
 
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I think the stack sizes being what they are, shoving is the right play. Minraising actually looks a little too strong. Even if overpairs are unlikely to fold to it, it has the effect of making them wary and you might not necessarily get their stack on the turn or river, especially if an action-killing card falls like Figaroo and Minh mentioned.

If you go all in, BB is looking at calling another 70bb to win ~145bb. Big unpaired broadways are too likely to be c-betting OOP with just overs into two players on that kind of flop, so I think the majority of the time he indeed has the overpair and you're taking his stack. In addition to the sets, there are several combinations of pair+gutshot type hand in your range like J10 or J9 that he'd interpret as you trying to use your big stack fold equity.

Then CO will be looking at even better pot odds. The best hand he can reasonably turn up is QJs, in which case he has 8 outs and has to call. With TPTK hands like AT/KT, decent players are unlikely to lose any more money in this hand. On blank turns they would likely deduce their hand is beat and fold if BB fires again, or check to you then fold so you're usually not going to get more money anyway. Therefore, springing the trap one street later really just risks scare cards slowing down BB, which we don't want to happen.
 
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Shoving probably looks way stronger, and min-raising so that only 1/4 of your stack is in looks like you can still get away from the hand if you get jammed on. If the BB and CO are competent, they is folding to our shove. The BB and CO are repping an overpair, and by jamming, we pretty much rep exactly what we have: a set. We are not jamming here with TPTK/JJ/pair + GS but flatting, and since we did not 3-bet pre, QQ/KK/AA can be discounted from our range. We can't really have a straight here either, so we turn our hand super face-up by jamming. Of course, this is assuming that Villains have good hand reading abilities, which most don't at 25NL. I think at least one of them will call us if we jam because people tend to overvalue their hands, but if they are good players they should be snap fold to our jam.

If we min-raise, I expect what will happen is that the BB will jam, and the CO will come over the top. The CO might possibly fold, but if we jam, and the BB jams over us, the CO is NEVER calling if he is even somewhat competent. I don't normally ever min-raise (only done so about 2-4 times), but this is probably a good hand to do so. The BB and CO are never ever flatting OOP with an overpair here on a draw heavy board; they are going to shove or fold. And you will help them find a fold if you jam here.
 
c9h13no3

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I just cram it in. An 8 or a J would really be a buzzkill.
 
IPlay

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I shoved, BB folded QQ and CO folded JJ

Was pretty surprised I got no calls considering the size of the pot and CO seemed fishy and folded an overpair+gut shot.
 
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MinhANguyen

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When you simply called a PR raise and overcalled a 3-bet, then jammed and came over the top of two people who are obviously repping overpairs, you pretty much turned your hand face-up and told them exactly what you had: a set. A shame that the BB didn't pay you off though; people at 25NL tend to overvalue their overpairs.
 
Thinker_145

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I shoved, BB folded QQ and CO folded JJ

Was pretty surprised I got no calls considering the size of the pot and CO seemed fishy and folded an overpair+gut shot.
Sorry to ask this question again but how do you know that? You are playing on PS here so?

As for the hand well bad luck you flopped a set on that sort of a board. I am just never slow playing a set on a straight board having the effective nuts.
 
IPlay

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Sorry to ask this question again but how do you know that? You are playing on PS here so?

As for the hand well bad luck you flopped a set on that sort of a board. I am just never slow playing a set on a straight board having the effective nuts.

I play on Bovada and my hand converter changes it into pokerstars format and on Bovada we are allowed to see hole cards 24 hours later.
 
Thinker_145

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I play on Bovada and my hand converter changes it into Pokerstars format and on Bovada we are allowed to see hole cards 24 hours later.
Yes I know that you told me last time but didnt know that it converts it into PS. Thanks for the clarification.
 
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