$25 NLHE 6-max: decision making throught streets

G

gAsheks

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Full Tilt, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, Rush, 6 Players

BTN: $40.24 (161 bb)
SB: $37.99 (152 bb)
Hero (BB): $95.50 (382 bb)
UTG: $49.22 (196.9 bb)
MP: $55.51 (222 bb)
CO: $34.47 (137.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J
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J
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UTG raises to $0.75, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.60) T
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7
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2
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(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.50, UTG calls $1.75

Turn: ($6.60) 9
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(2 players)
Hero bets $4, UTG calls $4

River: ($14.60) K
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(2 players)
Hero??

Info on our friend:
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Our friend is quite wide in UTG. I would consider 3bet for value, but he folds quite a lot. So flatting to play a pot with him is our only option?

On flop i think we can go for value raise once he bets smallish. I would like to know what could he bet/call here to know that my assumptions are right.

Turn i guess is somewhat straight forward.

The biggest question is river. Its hard to get value from Tx now. FD missed so its more like a check in this spot? What we do if villain bets?
 
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hffjd2000

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Flop, I think he is semibluffing.
Its not clear why he is calling our value bet. He might be drawing. Ill check here river. If he bets, Ill call.
 
John A

John A

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Lead at the flop, or c/c and lead the turn. It's generally not a good idea to bloat the pot OOP with a hand that can easily get out run on later streets unless you have a really good reason to do so (ie villain that will stack off light).
 
Figaroo2

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Agree with flatting here his 20% opening range UTG is largely crushed by JJ. If you 3 bet him he is folding plenty and only staying with hands such as high card combos that can easily draw out on you.
Almost certainly has a high heart here to just call on the turn, probably the ace but I wouldn't rule out the king. Classic medium strength hand not suitable for betting on the river IMO. Anything that calls will likely beat you, anything you beat likely to fold. Check call river if he bets.
 
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rumsey182

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Our friend is quite wide in UTG. I would consider 3bet for value, but he folds quite a lot. So flatting to play a pot with him is our only option?
why do we pass up on the free money when he folds?
 
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Ubercroz

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What do you mean by "pass up"? That i could 3bet him and collect his 3bbs?

Yes, we win make lots of money when all our opponents fold. And it gives us a better idea where we stand. we fold to 4bets and if he flats our 3bet, then we jump that flop hard.

If I played and everytime I raised everyone folded I would love it. Literally free money.

you only have 704 hands on this guy, don't be tricky with your play. Play some good old fashioned ABC poker, you have a hand with value therefore you bet.
 
John A

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To your first question, I think flatting this OOP and playing a smaller pot this deep is the best way to go. Even if he folds a lot to 3-bets in general, his 3-bet calling range is going to widen and probably be near 100% in this situation. Additionally, he's aggressive enough on later streets to put you into too many tricky spots with these stakes. Better to play a smaller pot against him or hope to flop a high set.

River is pretty easy. You still can get value from Tx, and even 9x because of how you played it. It just all comes down to how often you think your opponent can bluff. If you don't think he's capable, then you're much better off bet/folding unless you are planning on folding the river (which isn't a great line). If you think he's aggressive enough, and by his stats he may very well be, then c/cing depending on sizing might be best. Really you'd check/ call instead of bet if you think he can turn a 9 and a 7 (where he had a combo draw) on the flop and/or turn into a bluff often enough.

You made this hand a little more difficult than it needed to be though w/ the flop check-raise.
 
hashtag

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I think he is chasing some type of draw; QJ with a heart?

Anyway, preflop with JJ OOP to a first in raise, and you just called? Considering JJ is such a tricky hand to play post flop (unless it improves on flop), did you really want to play this guy OOP if there was an A, K or Q on the board? It's bad enough with the draws you have.

He is only calling a bet on the river if he has you beat, but if you check then he is betting if he has you beat OR may bluff the pot if he missed. Check call the river (unless he bets the pot).
 
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rumsey182

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To your first question, I think flatting this OOP and playing a smaller pot this deep is the best way to go. Even if he folds a lot to 3-bets in general, his 3-bet calling range is going to widen and probably be near 100% in this situation. Additionally, he's aggressive enough on later streets to put you into too many tricky spots with these stakes. Better to play a smaller pot against him or hope to flop a high set.

.
someone playing aggressively postflop against our overall tighter range is not longterm bad for us

If he opens too wide pre and peels a ton we are just more ahead of his range
, and if he opens wide and just has a reasonable calling range we win the pot variance free a lot

I don't mind flatting pre but it is something i would say we need more competency playing postflop to do, because if we are just set mining we don't have as much implied odds vs a wide range and we aren't getting incredible odds to be calling pre
 
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gAsheks

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someone playing aggressively postflop against our overall tighter range is not longterm bad for us

If he opens too wide pre and peels a ton we are just more ahead of his range
, and if he opens wide and just has a reasonable calling range we win the pot variance free a lot

I don't mind flatting pre but it is something i would say we need more competency playing postflop to do, because if we are just set mining we don't have as much implied odds vs a wide range and we aren't getting incredible odds to be calling pre
Thats not a setmining case for sure.
 
Arjonius

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someone playing aggressively postflop against our overall tighter range is not longterm bad for us
I think it's fine when we consider relative hand strength, but factor in that we're OOP and that many more hands hit the opponent's range than our JJ and/or are danger cards, and it doesn't look as good any more. Maybe not bad, but not as good.
 
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rumsey182

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I think it's fine when we consider relative hand strength, but factor in that we're OOP and that many more hands hit the opponent's range than our JJ and/or are danger cards, and it doesn't look as good any more. Maybe not bad, but not as good.
first off, we compensate for being OOP by having a tighter range overall to negate or minimize his potential skill advantage on us. Secondly your thinking in a hand vs hand state of mind, we are playing ranges vs ranges. Thinking our hand vs his range only comes into play when considering which range we wish our hand to be in. Finally, the overall +ev ness of the 3 bet doesn't reguire us to win a ton postflop assuming he folds. And if he isn't ever folding, how can we not be massively ahead of his loose range and collect a good bit from cbetting?

Your kind of missing the overarching strategy here
 
Aces2w1n

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we are 3betting simple. pockets smaller than ours will call and AK and some players even AQ or A10s+ will call which we are infront of. If we are behind then we are simply set mining. But if we are infront then we can fold/turn to shutdown the pot

Leading the flop.

If our opponent is just calling i'll even shoot a 2nd barrel...

river is a simple check/fold... So much out there has us beat and that really isn't a danger card if he's slow playing straight/flush and perhaps is trapping.
 
John A

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someone playing aggressively postflop against our overall tighter range is not longterm bad for us

If he opens too wide pre and peels a ton we are just more ahead of his range
, and if he opens wide and just has a reasonable calling range we win the pot variance free a lot

I don't mind flatting pre but it is something i would say we need more competency playing postflop to do, because if we are just set mining we don't have as much implied odds vs a wide range and we aren't getting incredible odds to be calling pre

No one is just set mining. I completely disagree with what you're saying though. I think if hero is ~100bbs deep, then I agree. However, when your opponents 3-bet calling range is going to widen this deep, and you have a hand that does not play well in a big pot, you're setting yourself up for failure.

I know a lot of you guys hear good players talking in training videos about range, and being ahead of someone's range, and allowing them to keep their weaker range in, etc... I don't think most of the guys talking about this really fully understand what they are saying. In a literal sense, it's pretty easy to see if someone opens X% of hands and you call with Y% (tighter), you will be ahead of their range. However, that doesn't really matter much in most post flop situations. I think people badly misunderstand this because they are thinking almost like limit holdem players. In most of these situations, you'll never be better than having a 2:1 equity advantage pre-flop versus your opponents range, and most of the time, less than that.

The reality is that you want to keep your opponents weaker range in as much as possible, but only in situations where a) the post flop ability of your hand is really good or b) You have a strong hand that will have lots of combos of weaker hands in that same range. Simple example is flatting AQ against someone's 35% open where they will have LOTS of weaker Ax holdings.

Position is such a huge bb/100 swing difference that if you analyze the same range of hands, let's say most common strong hands like KQ, KJs, ATs, AJo, etc... out of position versus in position, you'll notice how much more profitable those same hands are in position versus out. It's pretty much a huge chasm for everyone.

Simple reason... this isn't limit poker. Your opponent can bluff versus your range in position much more profitably than you can. They will always play their hand better because they will get away from their second best hands, float in the right spots better, turn smaller pairs into bluffs more often, and represent better hands than you can playing that hand OOP.
 
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rumsey182

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No one is just set mining. I completely disagree with what you're saying though. I think if hero is ~100bbs deep, then I agree. However, when your opponents 3-bet calling range is going to widen this deep, and you have a hand that does not play well in a big pot, you're setting yourself up for failure.

I know a lot of you guys hear good players talking in training videos about range, and being ahead of someone's range, and allowing them to keep their weaker range in, etc... I don't think most of the guys talking about this really fully understand what they are saying. In a literal sense, it's pretty easy to see if someone opens X% of hands and you call with Y% (tighter), you will be ahead of their range. However, that doesn't really matter much in most post flop situations. I think people badly misunderstand this because they are thinking almost like limit holdem players. In most of these situations, you'll never be better than having a 2:1 equity advantage pre-flop versus your opponents range, and most of the time, less than that.

The reality is that you want to keep your opponents weaker range in as much as possible, but only in situations where a) the post flop ability of your hand is really good or b) You have a strong hand that will have lots of combos of weaker hands in that same range. Simple example is flatting AQ against someone's 35% open where they will have LOTS of weaker Ax holdings.

Position is such a huge bb/100 swing difference that if you analyze the same range of hands, let's say most common strong hands like KQ, KJs, ATs, AJo, etc... out of position versus in position, you'll notice how much more profitable those same hands are in position versus out. It's pretty much a huge chasm for everyone.

Simple reason... this isn't limit poker. Your opponent can bluff versus your range in position much more profitably than you can. They will always play their hand better because they will get away from their second best hands, float in the right spots better, turn smaller pairs into bluffs more often, and represent better hands than you can playing that hand OOP.
you very well could be correct if i am misunderstanding others logic, i simply don't know

as to being deeper, you are correct in a lot of postflop situations. I personally feel it depends on the person doing the 3 betting and how well (or not) they play postflop. If you can handle being in a situation with wider ranges from villain and being OOP ( with some people def can due to good hand reading) I see no issue with that. Where or not i fit into that, I really don't know. Everyone certainly likes to think that is the case, but try to be realistic about any skill i perceive myself of having (or lack there of)

Your right also that equities run similar in deeper situations mostly, somewhat similar to playing a plo hand honestly. If your overall game plan of how you are attacking these people is solid and your comfortable in dealing with the ramifications of it then there shouldn't be much of an issue. Clearly how we address this situation isn't a one street question but a multistreet one regardless of what we are doing here

The one thing i just can't get past is if we are not 3 betting JJ+ and AK then we basically reduce ourselves to a range of QQ+ which is about a 1% 3 betting frequency versus someone who is opening wide. This just doesn't sit well with me in allowing someone to freely open preflop wide and often time taking down the blinds.

Flatting isn't bad, but if we are flatting we need to be c/cing and c/ring a decent bit on the flop. The problem with this is we are giving cheaper equity to a range that we both agree has similar equity to us, which will inherently create variance. When we can shut people out of their equity share of the pot without any showdown and or fewer streets that generally speaking ( i hate talking in axioms sorry but couldn't verbalize it any better) this is good for us overall

I am enjoying the feedback and discussion as I'm always looking to improve the way I think about this game so thank you for taking the time to do so
 
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I feel like depth of the stacks is less important than a good pot to stack ratio.

If you have a strong hand you want that ratio between your stack and what is in the pot to be low. It lets you really commit and it keeps you from being bluffed.

Even if you play fairly deep, if you can get someone to over commit their chips preflop so that the ratio is in your favor postflop, then you have made an easy decision for yourself.

In a situation where you are 200bb deep, that does become much harder. Its tough to get people to commit like that.

The downside of playing deep is that; if you don't have a really solid grasp of deep stack play you can put yourself in a really challenging situation with hands that are much easier to play with a standard sized stack.

I agree with Rumsey that just flatting with JJ out of position is a really icky feeling play. You are giving up equity in a hand where you potentially are at your strongest. JJ is not likely to get better postflop and its likely the best hand pre-flop, so not putting money in the pot when you have the best hand feels very strange.

On the other hand I think John A has a good point, deep stack your equity starts to run a little closer. Its not super close, JJ is a favorite over a lot of hands regardless. The problem is you start to give people reverse implied odds when you pay people off with your pocket pair and they landed a stronger hand. You really have to get a better idea of where you are at and who you are playing against if you are going to be playing a deep stack game.

All that being said, I would still like to 3bet preflop. I just don't like giving up on my equity when my hand is strongest, and I make money when my opponent folds. JJ is not a hand that lets me compete for his stack unless I get lucky, so lets get it in when we are good and if things start to look sticky then get out.

In this hand, I originally didn't like the raise on the flop, but I changed my mind. I like that raise, it puts our opponent in a tight spot and likely confirms that he is not rocking a made hand.

Turn I like to, don't let him check behind for a free card if he draws. On the river we could throw out a blocking bet, but it could be tough to size. Too small and he raises sensing weakness, too big and we never get a call from a weaker hand, which there could be several of here.

I wouldn't mind a check on the river, willing to call a small bet, but I think a blocking bet is likely better.
 
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