$25 NLHE 6-max: Call 5-bet shove with AQo?

B

BipolarDonky

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Hi, I am new to the boards and was wondering if I played this hand correctly (which I'm wuite sure I did not). Villian had a high 3-bet %. My 3 bet % was about 15%.

my stack was $31.53 prior to the hand. Villians stack was $36.50.

It's folded around to the CO who 3x's, sb folds, Villian in BB 3-bets light to $1.85, I 4bet $4, villian 5-bet shoves all in and I call

My hand: AQo
Villian: 99

Like I said I'm pretty sure I should not have called his shove here, but 99, did he make the correct play?:confused:
 
c9h13no3

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Hand histories (preferably converted) help. And leave out the results.

This is a simple pot odds question. There's 4+31.53+0.1=$35.63 in the pot. You have to call off $27.53. So 35.63/27.53 = 1.29:1 or 44%.

Hand 0: 44.032% { AcQd }
Hand 1: 55.968% { 22+, AJs+, AJo+ }

You think he 5-bets that wide? If so, call. If not, fold. And the pairs really don't matter here. You really just need him to be able to 5-bet some AXs, 98s, or KQ type hands here.

Also of note, with your small 4-bet & the fact that you're a little over 100bb's, you've set yourself up to have pretty poor pot odds when he shoves.

So you essentially need to ask yourself, does he pay attention to these factors? He won't gain much when he jams on you and you fold, but he'll lose a lot when he jams and you call with a hand he's beat by. So if he's a thinking reg, he'll almost always have a hand in his value range here.

Also, I'd rather call his 3-bet if he's a thinking reg that's 3-bet bluffing a lot, and not fold many flops. This gets more $ out of his bluffs.

But anyways, this guy sounds like a maniac. So I'd lean towards 4-betting pretty large with the intention of never folding.
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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Why 4bet?

You have AQ against a villian who 3bets wide and you have position! You could call.

Why is your 3bet % 15%? Thats just silly.

Given you 3bet 15% his stack off with 99 is marginal but fine.

You 4bet size is way too small.

Villians play is fine. Part of the value of his hand is the shove, the fact that you could fold. You have no fold equity and part of the value of getting all in with less than premium hands is fold equity.

Basically stop 3betting so much and use position and play postflop poker.
 
Stu_Ungar

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But anyways, this guy sounds like a maniac. So I'd lean towards 4-betting pretty large with the intention of never folding.

Which one?

The guy who 3bets 15% and calls with AQo or the guy who shoves 99 over that 15% range!!!

Both are just playing way too wide.
 
WVHillbilly

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You have to be good 44.6% of the time for the call to be +EV.

Even if you think his range is as wide as 88+/AJ+ you're not getting the odds needed. If you add AT to his range your OK but really I'd think an 8% 5-bet shove range is a bit optimistic. Against his actually hand you were barely break even.

I hate 4betting AQ here. What was your position here BTW? Nothing really makes much sense unless you open limped???
 
Stu_Ungar

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I would say that the villians range for doing this is 88-QQ AK AQ

AA and KK may be played like this but more likely they are 5 bet but not shoved.

The guy obviously wants a fold as this is near the bottom of his range, but his range crushes AQ and denies correct odds as the pot is small in relation to stacks.
 
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BipolarDonky

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Posistion

I wansn't even in the pot. He was just 3-betting a wide range and I was one behind him (BB +1). I keep looking over the hand thinking I must've just been tilting at the time.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I wansn't even in the pot. He was just 3-betting a wide range and I was one behind him (BB +1). I keep looking over the hand thinking I must've just been tilting at the time.

Why did you tell us your 3bet % was 15%?

What has your 3bet % got to do with anything?
 
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Stu_Ungar

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3betting 15% is just silly.

If MP opens and then MR 15% flats on the button Id call with hands like JTo

If I hit a J or a T on a AT7 board I have the nuts!

The action should go something like this MP cbets, Mr 15% raises cuz he is the sort of player who will. I call / min raise MP folds. Mr 15% bets turn and shoves river. I call.

He either has a set (unlikely) or air.. he 3bets so wide that there simply arent any aces left in his flatting range that he would want to play for stacks with. So JT on an Ace high board is the nuts!
 
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BipolarDonky

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sorry, misposted

(I got it wrong bc I am at work and dont have HEM here obv.)

I was one off the BB (EP) and open raised 3x. every one folds cutoff calls, SB folds, and then the BB 3 bet's light, I four bet and he auto shoves. It just seems a little odd to jam here with 99. Granted my call was wrong in hindsight but 99??!?. I mean this is why I am posting the hand, I am new to 6max.

Thanks for all the help so far guys.:D
 
Stu_Ungar

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I wansn't even in the pot. He was just 3-betting a wide range and I was one behind him (BB +1). I keep looking over the hand thinking I must've just been tilting at the time.

(I got it wrong bc I am at work and dont have HEM here obv.)

I was one off the BB (EP) and open raised 3x. every one folds cutoff calls, SB folds, and then the BB 3 bet's light, I four bet and he auto shoves. It just seems a little odd to jam here with 99. Granted my call was wrong in hindsight but 99??!?. I mean this is why I am posting the hand, I am new to 6max.

Thanks for all the help so far guys.:D

I'm confused.

Did you play this hand or not?
 
Stu_Ungar

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It's folded around to the CO who 3x's, sb folds, Villian in BB 3-bets light to $1.85, I 4bet $4, villian 5-bet shoves all in and I call


I was one off the BB (EP) and open raised 3x. every one folds cutoff calls, SB folds, and then the BB 3 bet's light, I four bet and he auto shoves. It just seems a little odd to jam here with 99. Granted my call was wrong in hindsight but 99??!?. I mean this is why I am posting the hand, I am new to 6max.

Thanks for all the help so far guys.:D

Those 2 posts dont tie up either.
 
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BipolarDonky

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...

it's the second of the two posts that is correct. I said the first one was wrong. I'll post the actual hand when I get home.. In any event, my main question was if it was correct for villian to 5-bet shove with a hand like 99?
 
Stu_Ungar

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The question should really be is it correct to call a 5 bet shove with AQo
 
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BipolarDonky

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...

Right, but wtf is he shoving there for with 99. I'm accountable for my play there, which was wrong, but how is villain shoving with 99. He doesn't have any idea of my 4-bet range. It's still a medium pair and he's committing his stack with that. I mean, I guess I should have folded here but then what can I call with.

Also, before u said that 3 betting 17 % of the time is too HIGH? what is a good % than and what about 4 betting%?

I guess I should just play a more straight-forward game at these stakes.
 
Stu_Ungar

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OK I think you both played this hand badly, but of the two you played it worse.

Your mistake was calling a 5bet shove with AQo.. in order for that to be profitable his 5bet shove range would need to be about 10% and its unlikely to be that high, its 2/3 of his 3bet range!

His play in itself is both good and bad. It relies on fold equity.. basically that given stack sizes and the pot odds offered, there isnt much you can actually call his shove with. However his mistake is that he tried it on you and you are a calling station! If he is going to shove hands like that he needs to be very certain you will fold almost everything.

Given that you were in EP and you 4bet etc his play is bad because AQ really is the bottom of your 4bet range, if you open tight from EP and then 4bet you really are looking at a range of JJ+ AK (at least that should be his perception) so when he shoves he can never fold out enough of this range to justify the cost of the shove. i.e. the small pots he wins when you fold Ak and JJ never make up for the big pots he loses when he is called by AA-QQ.
 
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BipolarDonky

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Thanks

Thanks for explaining that. I played the hand badly (and was also tilting lightly). I mean I guess it's not that uncommon, I've had people push at me with 55, 66 etc when I have aces.

Thanks again for the help. also, maybe it is not the place to ask but what are optimal 3 and 4 bet %'s for these stakes at 6-max? or maybe that is too vague of a question. any help is greatly appreciated.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Right, but wtf is he shoving there for with 99. I'm accountable for my play there, which was wrong, but how is villain shoving with 99. He doesn't have any idea of my 4-bet range. It's still a medium pair and he's committing his stack with that. I mean, I guess I should have folded here but then what can I call with.

Also, before u said that 3 betting 17 % of the time is too HIGH? what is a good % than and what about 4 betting%?

I guess I should just play a more straight-forward game at these stakes.

3 and 4 bet ranges all depend on how polarised your opponents range is and how often he calls.

There is no fixed answer.

Its not a case of setting it to a certain % its a case of identifiying people who fold a lot and call alot.

Against those who fold a lot raise them with weaker hands expecting them to fold and call with strong hands as the will likely fold if you raise.

Against people who call too much dont bluff just raise all of your big hands and dont call much.

This usually translates into a figure of 3-8%

If people call too much then your 3 and 4 bet figures are going to be very low because JJ+ AK represents 3% of all hands. 5% is a wider value based range. 8% would tend to be a polarised range.

There is no quick fix answer.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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To add to what Stu said, there is no right answer, but that answer is rarely 15%. You're probably 3-bet bluffing in bad spots, turning solid calling hands into bluffs, and 3-betting every time from the blinds when the button raises.
 
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