$25 NLHE 6-max: Butchered QQ hand

IPlay

IPlay

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Readless on Bovada Zone and before you say top up, I know. Bovada doesn't have auto top up and sometimes you can't top up fast enough between hands.

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (MP): 95.6 BB
CO: 71.92 BB
BTN: 116.24 BB
SB: 265 BB
BB: 56.88 BB
UTG: 89.52 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q:club: Q:spade:

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BTN raises to 8 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 5 BB

Flop: (17.4 BB, 2 players) 8:diamond: 9:diamond: Q:diamond:
Hero checks, BTN bets 5 BB, Hero raises to 14.6 BB, BTN calls 9.6 BB

Turn: (46.6 BB, 2 players) 5:club:
Hero bets 28.8 BB, BTN calls 28.8 BB

River: (104.2 BB, 2 players) 6:diamond:
Hero ???

x/fold river? 4 Bet pre? Over bet jam turn?(73bb behind) 3 bet flop larger so I can have a smaller SPR going into turn? Pair the board??? :deal:
 
TimovieMan

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Looks like what I encounter every time I don't 4-bet with AA/KK. All 3 times I've done that.
16x16_smiley-shifty.gif


Check/fold seems best.

Why not a pot-sized bet on the flop and getting it in on the turn?
 
Trabendo_daze

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4-betting pre seems totally fine but I don't hate calling either. He 3-bet you on the BTN so his range should be a little wider and include some hands he's 3bet folding. This is what sucks about Bovada is we can't make these adjustments.

Flop is fine, maybe size a little bigger. Turn is fine, maybe size a little bigger. River is puke check fold.

I don't think you butchered this. It seems totally std and only small things like sizing could have been better I think.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I guess c/r flop to 20bb. Move in on turn.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Shove the river, now that you've gotten yourself in a spot where you can't fold, getting 3:1.

Also, raise the flop way larger so you can shove the turn.

4-betting vs calling really depends on the players at Bovada (what your average regarding plays like). I prefer a 4-bet, but calling isn't terrible. Good players will be spooked by a called 3bet OOP, but I doubt your average Bovada reg is good.
 
Trabendo_daze

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@C9 We're shoving the river to get value from what exactly? Is it more to protect ourselves from being bluffed off the best hand? What would he be bluffing with anyways? I feel like any non-diamond hand has SDV and would check-back whereas the other parts of his range are diamonds...
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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IPlay

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Interesting C9. I've posted a hand before where the river sucked and I couldn't x/fold and everyone thought x/calling was best but after a long debate we decided if we can't x/fold and we have to call river then shoving is best.

But I'm not sure if we check this river if villains are ever turning a hand they get to river with into a bluff. They probably check all SDV without diamonds here, right?

So it really comes down to, can we x/fold the river at this point?

All in all this hand is a result of somewhat poor pot geometry and if I raised flop to 20bbs I can jam turn and make this hand much easier.
 
S

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Check fold the river I think is the best course of action here but let's work backwards. The turn size was a little small but I think this goes back to your question on a different hand about value betting. If they're going to call X would they call Y? Due to the way villain/we played flop I think we get ourselves into trouble on the turn.

Assuming villain is a thinking player they raised small on the flop for 1 of 3(?) reasons.
1. Small bet to see if you fold
2. Small bet to keep you getting odds to call draws and made hands
3. Small bet so if you check/raise, you're not going to raise them high enough to force villian to fold draws, thus negating the check/raise altogether.

Let's assume their reason was either 2 or 3. By raising more on the flop you save yourself a lot of confusion on the turn. Instead of check/raising to their sizing here, check/raise to a size against a 2/3-3/4 psb instead, so closer to 30bb IMO. This would A) solve number 1. B) tell you how strong they are i.e. made hand or strong draw, and C. allow you to play the turn, card dependant, and with more information.
 
Trabendo_daze

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I think the theorem is interesting, but it really depends on villain's ability to call us down light OTR. What the theorem does neglect, however, is how the hand played out up until this point. IPlay has shown incredible strength up to this point so I would be surprised if villain calls down light here. What bluffs does IPlay have? I argue that IPlay like never has worse than a set here right? This greatly affects your EV calculation in that post.

I think your Clarkmeister theorem calculations are solid but they neglect some important factors of the hand which would make the river bet here a little less +EV. Is it still +EV? Maybe. I think that check folding with such small stacks left behind is what is problematic, for sure. Bigger stacks, though, and I'm leaning more towards a c/f.
 
IPlay

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Great point about villains bet sizing on flop sneaky and I probably could x/raise much much larger.

All in all river comes down to if villain will turn made hands into bluffs or not. if he will I should just shove and if he won't I should x/fold but readless I guess I should shove by default? Or should I x/call to let them bluff something since worse is never calling? You see some pretty whacko stuff on Bovada.
 
Aces2w1n

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im with c9 shoving river is great.. its amazing how many folds you get from a 4 suited board.. low flushes find it hard to call
 
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