$25 NLHE 6-max: Am I a nit for folding my straight here?

BvBrMTW

BvBrMTW

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So I have no stats on villain, and I've been running pretty bad, a lot of coolers and suckouts, so yea, would you fold here?

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Hero (Button) ($54.48)
SB ($25.10)
BB ($21.49)
UTG ($25.62)
MP ($25.70)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q
club.gif
, 10
club.gif

2 folds, Hero bets $0.75, 1 fold, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.60) 2
diamond.gif
, J
spade.gif
, 9
diamond.gif
(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.25, BB calls $1.25

Turn: ($4.10) K
diamond.gif
(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3, BB raises to $6.90, Hero folds

Total pot: $10.10 | Rake: $0.45
 
forsakenone

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When I start getting coolers I start making tougher folds as well but this seems bad, I can totally see him raising a bunch of stuff like sets, 2 pair top pair K if he is a fish or something like A of diamonds with a pair or even a total bluff since he thinks he can represent a K.

Plus look at his stack, he doesn't have a full stack which makes me mark him as a fish instantly.
 
snklzona

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When I start getting coolers I start making tougher folds as well but this seems bad, I can totally see him raising a bunch of stuff like sets, 2 pair top pair K if he is a fish or something like A of diamonds with a pair or even a total bluff since he thinks he can represent a K.

Plus look at his stack, he doesn't have a full stack which makes me mark him as a fish instantly.

Is that a real indication of being a fish...not having full stack???
 
BvBrMTW

BvBrMTW

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@snklzona, I usually mark all players without full stacks as 'weak' . not directly a fish tho. But yes, you can pretty much assume they are easily exploitable.

Looking back at the hand now I think I should've just shoved it as there are a lot of hands I beat indeed. Tho I played really scared at the time and I was pretty tilted, so I decided to fold and finish the session.
 
vinylspiros

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id call here and fold river if he shoved or bet big.
 
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Folding can't be bad here. When fish c/r the turn it's pretty much the nuts. He's set up for an easy river shove, too.
 
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you have no reads. more likely he is fishy


you have been running bad more likely you will play weak

this is a blind battle you are getting cr bluffed often here

if you were so scared of the flush you should of checked turn and called or bet one on riv
 
Yoshimiii

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you have no reads. more likely he is fishy


you have been running bad more likely you will play weak

this is a blind battle you are getting cr bluffed often here

if you were so scared of the flush you should of checked turn and called or bet one on riv

This is 25nl so their is hardly nobody check-raising bluffs, especially here on that turn card, the only guys check-raising bluffs are villains who spew/tilt or the really good regs, and with this guys stack size we can assume he isn't a good regular. Good fold I say, villain probably has the flush. Just because he doesn't have a full stack doesn't auto label him as a fish, maybe a weak player but the chances are if he is a weak player he will be passive not aggro, therefore he will probably calling with anything that isn't a flush here and raising some (maybe not even all) of his flushes.

Also the size of the raise looks like it's the nuts, seriously if he didn't have a flush here I would be mega surprised.
 
BvBrMTW

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@vinyl, I don't like giving him 16bb's for free there. IF he has a set or AK type of hand, he'll shove the river anyway. So we won't get any extra information out of him that way. I think we should go with it or fold.
Now I've looked at it multiple times, and after reading all the comments I honestly have no clue what he had.
But I guess folding isn't terrible,,
 
JCgrind

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I think I should've just shoved it as there are a lot of hands I beat indeed

dont do this.

if hes got a flush, you dont want to pay him off. if he has a hand you beat, you want him to think hes got the best hand so you win more money- not make him able to fold everything you beat and stack you with everything that beats you

@vinyl, I don't like giving him 16bb's for free there. IF he has a set or AK type of hand, he'll shove the river anyway. So we won't get any extra information out of him that way. I think we should go with it or fold.

based on what? no stats and definitely not enough information to make that assumption. much more likely that he will blocker bet or check call non diamond rivers with those hands.

turn is a call and only a call imo. if you bet/fold every turn where a flush peels to basically a minraise, youre infinitely exploitable. if you were OOP maybe yeah give him the benefit of the doubt and just fold because he can put you in way to many sick spots OTR, but IP, you 100% have to call and reevaluate based on his river action. you only have to have him beat ~1/3 times not including any additional bets you win OTR. if you arent going to bluffcatch a straight, what are you going to bluff catch?
 
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JusSumguy

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The way the betting went... I fold

-
 
BvBrMTW

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dont do this.

if hes got a flush, you dont want to pay him off. if he has a hand you beat, you want him to think hes got the best hand so you win more money- not make him able to fold everything you beat and stack you with everything that beats you



based on what? no stats and definitely not enough information to make that assumption. much more likely that he will blocker bet or check call non diamond rivers with those hands.

turn is a call and only a call imo. if you bet/fold every turn where a flush peels to basically a minraise, youre infinitely exploitable. if you were OOP maybe yeah give him the benefit of the doubt and just fold because he can put you in way to many sick spots OTR, but IP, you 100% have to call and reevaluate based on his river action. you only have to have him beat ~1/3 times not including any additional bets you win OTR. if you arent going to bluffcatch a straight, what are you going to bluff catch?

He looks like a weak player, and these type of players usually go all the way with tptk, let alone a set.

And like stated before, people don't c/r bluff the turn usually, especially not bad players.
 
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dresturn2

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the question is...what would you have done if you werent running bad...I think if the running bad is changing your play then you should take a break
 
BvBrMTW

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the question is...what would you have done if you werent running bad...I think if the running bad is changing your play then you should take a break

Like I said, I ended the session directly after the hand, still, when you run bad you run bad, so I think that makes the probability he had the flush bigger.
 
JCgrind

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He looks like a weak player, and these type of players usually go all the way with tptk, let alone a set.



youre damn right hell go all the way with those hands, but hes only stacking off with a flush if you stack the turn. otherwise youre getting folds and killing all your value. trust me, 3b shoving turn is way worse than folding, ainec. imo, flatting turn is still slightly better than folding.

when you 3b shove turn, he calls less with worse and more with better
when you flat the turn c/r, he bets more often and c/cs more often on the river.

you lose less and win more. (obv folding to a river shove, bc no, shoving the river with less than a flush is not standard for weak players like this. check calling off with 2p, Kx is)

And like stated before, people don't c/r bluff the turn usually, especially not bad players.

youre forgetting the very simple fact that he doesnt have to think hes bluffing. as stated before, he can well c/r the turn with 2p Kx or a set thinking that hes doing it for value, when hes actually crushed. you 3b shove turn, and he gets another chance to realise otherwise. you flat turn, and his ignorance continues


and i cant believe you havent even made reference to my exploitability comments. 25NL isnt impossibly tough, but after rake it is still damn hard. folding to minraises when flushes peel while youre IP is so lolxploitable and stars regs (which the large majority at 25NL are) WILL notice how easy it is to push you off a hand. youll end up grinding down to nothing while trying to nut peddle. it also becomes infinitely hard for you to get paid off when you do have a hand, because nobody is ever going to call your shoves, even bet into you or check call if you always have the nuts and the nuts only after calling turn minraises. its an absolute metagame nightmare

and yes, i would call KJ to that c/r also, since its basically the same hand (arguably better actually).



another thought. bet the turn slightly smaller. suck in more worse hands to call you, rather than polarising the hands that call or raise more to hands that beat you
 
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BvBrMTW

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youre damn right hell go all the way with those hands, but hes only stacking off with a flush if you stack the turn. otherwise youre getting folds and killing all your value. trust me, 3b shoving turn is way worse than folding, ainec. imo, flatting turn is still slightly better than folding.

when you 3b shove turn, he calls less with worse and more with better
when you flat the turn c/r, he bets more often and c/cs more often on the river.

you lose less and win more. (obv folding to a river shove, bc no, shoving the river with less than a flush is not standard for weak players like this. check calling off with 2p, Kx is)



youre forgetting the very simple fact that he doesnt have to think hes bluffing. as stated before, he can well c/r the turn with 2p Kx or a set thinking that hes doing it for value, when hes actually crushed. you 3b shove turn, and he gets another chance to realise otherwise. you flat turn, and his ignorance continues


and i cant believe you havent even made reference to my exploitability comments. 25NL isnt impossibly tough, but after rake it is still damn hard. folding to minraises when flushes peel while youre IP is so lolxploitable and stars regs (which the large majority at 25NL are) WILL notice how easy it is to push you off a hand. youll end up grinding down to nothing while trying to nut peddle. it also becomes infinitely hard for you to get paid off when you do have a hand, because nobody is ever going to call your shoves, even bet into you or check call if you always have the nuts and the nuts only after calling turn minraises. its an absolute metagame nightmare

and yes, i would call KJ to that c/r also, since its basically the same hand (arguably better actually).




another thought. bet the turn slightly smaller. suck in more worse hands to call you, rather than polarising the hands that call or raise more to hands that beat you

Yeah good point on shoving, so I should basically always call/fold here?
Sorry I didn't comment on the exploitablity, I read over it.
So you mean I should always call min-raises on the turn when there's a flush draw?
 
JCgrind

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definitely always call or fold. id mostly always fold in this spot OOP.

i dont mean you should always call the min OTT, but you definitely need to find spots that you will. hands that id call the min OTT with would be all sets, 2p, AdJx, AdKx etc. anything with decent equity and the possibility to improve just incase you are behind. vs weak tight opponents, you can rep the nuts OTR too by shoving over the top of any river bet or if he checks provided you have the Ad.
 
Yoshimiii

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He looks like a weak player, and these type of players usually go all the way with tptk, let alone a set.

And like stated before, people don't c/r bluff the turn usually, especially not bad players.

If he's a weak player check-min raising with TPTK just doesn't make any sense, they would rather call it down than get aggro without a solid nut hand. A check-min raise OOP by a weak player is 90%+ a monster I would imagine, unless he's a maniac. Imo this is a fold still.

Also folding here often to min-raises would be exploitable at the higher stakes against good players but not here.
 
JCgrind

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Which is why I'd much more likely range him towards 2p w the k. He isn't going to be smart enough to value town you on the river anyway. You get this right 1/3 times and you win. No way is this a flush more than that often

Also note that people c/r ing me here is probably a lot different to them doing it to OP as I'm presumably a much looser player
 
Deco

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I'm fine with folding. Calling the turn can never be that bad given villains tiny bet sizing and non-fullstack but folding is probably the best play.

Shoving would be awful.
 
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