$25 NLHE 6-max: Always check the flop?

Romario2223

Romario2223

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pokerstars Zoom Hand #158006046590: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2016/09/01 9:23:38 MSK [2016/09/01 2:23:38 ET]
Table 'Hydra' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: the4er ($27.93 in chips)
Seat 2: paferia ($25.45 in chips)
Seat 3: Romario2223 ($15.35 in chips)
Seat 4: hanmer5555 ($41.79 in chips)
Seat 5: nandosjc88 ($48.25 in chips)
Seat 6: rickrueda ($18.36 in chips)
paferia: posts small blind $0.10
Romario2223: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Romario2223 [7h 7d]
hanmer5555: folds
nandosjc88: folds
rickrueda: raises $0.25 to $0.50
the4er: raises $1 to $1.50
paferia: folds
Romario2223: calls $1.25
rickrueda: folds
*** FLOP *** [Jh 7s 4d]
Romario2223: checks
the4er: bets $1.16
Romario2223: raises $2.88 to $4.04
the4er: calls $2.88
*** TURN *** [Jh 7s 4d] [5d]
Romario2223: bets $9.81 and is all-in
the4er: calls $9.81
*** RIVER *** [Jh 7s 4d 5d] [8d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Romario2223: shows [7h 7d] (three of a kind, Sevens)
the4er: shows [Jc As] (a pair of Jacks)
Romario2223 collected $29.89 from pot
 
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seventhsense

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It depends on how much he c-bets. If he's passive then I would lead. If we have no stats then your line is fine.
 
IPlay

IPlay

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Heads up checking is probably going to be best the majority of the time. When it is a wet flop and multiway is when you should start leading in these spots with monsters.
 
Romario2223

Romario2223

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Heads up checking is probably going to be best the majority of the time. When it is a wet flop and multiway is when you should start leading in these spots with monsters.

If it will be more than 1 player I must raise right?
 
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mr_kommpa

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Am I the only one that is a bit sceptical of the call with 77 from bb after a raise and a 3B? You are calling 1.25 to hopefully get your $15 stack in when you hit. You got 8% chans of hitting a set. Every time you hit you need to get (1.25/0.08) $15.625. The threat of 4B, Position and the odds would make me think that winning this hand enough of the time without showdown and I dont think we are likely to GII OOP enough of the time that we hit. I would fold. Other than that, well played! :)
 
Aces2w1n

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Am I the only one that is a bit sceptical of the call with 77 from bb after a raise and a 3B? You are calling 1.25 to hopefully get your $15 stack in when you hit. You got 8% chans of hitting a set. Every time you hit you need to get (1.25/0.08) $15.625. The threat of 4B, Position and the odds would make me think that winning this hand enough of the time without showdown and I dont think we are likely to GII OOP enough of the time that we hit. I would fold. Other than that, well played! :)

raiser and caller aint bad
 
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joe777

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Looking at board texture check trapping is fine here.
 
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ChrisMurray

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25NL 77 hand review

Hi Romario2223. I'll try and analyse this hand in depth. I'll make a prediction for villain's hand at the end (I promise I'll only look at the spoiler after i post).

Pre-flop: So, the raiser here (CO) makes it 2BB to go. We don't have any reads on him, except that he's not got a full stack and he raised very small. This gives me an idea that he's a recreational player, and not very good. We'll assign him a standard opening range from the CO of 22+, A9o+, A2s+, KTo+, K6s+, QTo+, Q8s+, JTo, J9s+, 54s+, 97s+. It's pretty loose because he's in LP and seems like a weak player.
Now, the BTN makes a 3-bet (3x) of a standard size, and we have no information on him. He may be trying to isolate the weaker player, so we should assign him a fairly wide 3-betting range for this reason, and also because he's IP. Let's go with (at its widest) JJ+, AK, AJo, KQo, KJs+, A8s-ATs, AQs, A2s-A5s, 54s-76s. This is so wide because he's often trying to isolate the weak player here. Often he won't have the weaker hands in his range but I like to keep ranges as wide as possible so we don't exclude any hands, at least until we have more information on the villain. I've added some 3-bet bluffs in as well, because it's quite a good spot for that. In total, it's about a 9% range.
Now, we have 77 in the BB. I really want to talk about this spot, because it's a spot so many people get wrong. I recently watched SplitSuit (YouTube him, he's really great) video to do with pretty much this exact spot (it was TT instead of 77), and you know what he advised? Fold. That's right, folding TT to a raise and a 3-bet from the blinds. Raising is bad, because either of these players could have a strong hand (the 3-bettor probably does) and we'd essentially be trying to 4-bet bluff two players out of the pot with a weak hand. Not going to work that often. The problem with calling is we have to fold if CO 4-bets. Even if he doesn't, we're not getting the right price to set-mine (you want to have good implied odds and we simply don't have enough here) and we're going to hit 2nd and 3rd pairs a lot on the flop, and we're going to have to fold them to a bet in a multi-way pot (and often HU too). We're also OOP against two players here. There's just no profitable move here apart from folding. As played, we go to the flop HU.


Flop: Obviously it's a great flop for us, we hit a set. It's a very dry board, with very few realistic draws. We should check to the raiser here, because he will c-bet this board with most of his range. The BTN bets very small (30%). This to me, looks like he has a hand he wants to value bet, or a draw he wants to see a cheap turn with. I don't expect him to ever really have complete air here because he would bet bigger to get more fold equity. Since there are no draws he can really have, my money is on him having JJ+ most of the time, occasionally AJ, KJ or a hand like 76.
Usually on a dry board, I like to slow play, because there's not much the opponent can have. In this spot however, the BTN has a strong range and we should raise to the money in now (if he has a hand like KK and an A comes on the turn, we might not get his stack). I like your sizing, I also make it about $4-$4.50. We'll get called by AJ, KJ and overpairs. We lose to JJ, but we can't do anything about it if he has that.
As stated, I expect villain to call this raise with about 80% of the range he makes that small flop bet with, so I'm not surprised.


Turn: The pot is now $11.68 (I think, word of friendly advice, it would be helpful if you posted the size of the pot on each street in your hand history). I think you make the correct move by shoving, we should get called by all overpairs, and AJ, KJ as well. I don't think villain ever really folds to this bet, so just go all-in and get max value.

You played this very well, except for the call pre-flop. May I suggest you put some study time into playing from the blinds? It's probably where most people make their mistakes pre-flop. I think he has AJ here. Out of 33 combos in his range, 9 are AJ. I think his small flop bet is most likely AJ, KJ or JJ because those are the only hands that have the board crushed (he could still bet more with an overpair, because we would still be able to have Jx more often then). By process of elimination, there simply aren't many combos of JJ (3) and he's less likely to 3-bet KJ pre-flop, and he sometimes folds it to the river shove as well. Could be an overpair though.
 
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ChrisMurray

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Am I the only one that is a bit sceptical of the call with 77 from bb after a raise and a 3B? You are calling 1.25 to hopefully get your $15 stack in when you hit. You got 8% chans of hitting a set. Every time you hit you need to get (1.25/0.08) $15.625. The threat of 4B, Position and the odds would make me think that winning this hand enough of the time without showdown and I dont think we are likely to GII OOP enough of the time that we hit. I would fold. Other than that, well played! :)

I agree. I would probably fold TT here as well (my post says why). It's a really bad spot here, there's just no way to play it profitably in the long run. Correct me if I'm wrong but my mug (I have this awesome poker mug with loads of stats on it) says that we hit a set 1 in every 8 times (maybe that's the confusion?) so that's more like 12%, but your point is still valid!
 
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ChrisMurray

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Looking at board texture check trapping is fine here.

That would be my standard play as well, but considering how strong our opponent's range is (lots of big pairs, AJ, KJ) and the fact his c-bet is suspiciously small (looks very value-ey) I think this is a spot to deviate from the standard playbook and make the raise? What do you think?
 
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nicolas jesus

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Hi.
I think pre flop is bad the call to 3 bet especially for the stack that you got 15 dollars.
And post flop is a very dry board to check raise. I think that could be done only by exploiting check-raise play but raise on that board is not balanced
 
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ChrisMurray

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Hi.
I think pre flop is bad the call to 3 bet especially for the stack that you got 15 dollars.
And post flop is a very dry board to check raise. I think that could be done only by exploiting check-raise play but raise on that board is not balanced

Yes, I'd like to ask OP, why have you not got a full stack? Always buy-in for full, and always have auto-rebuy on. It's by far the best way to do it!
 
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mr_kommpa

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I agree. I would probably fold TT here as well (my post says why). It's a really bad spot here, there's just no way to play it profitably in the long run. Correct me if I'm wrong but my mug (I have this awesome poker mug with loads of stats on it) says that we hit a set 1 in every 8 times (maybe that's the confusion?) so that's more like 12%, but your point is still valid!

Oh shit, just started playing again after a long break so my math is not amazing:) you are right, should be 12%!
I think your break down of his range is on point, the flop (when he c-bet) is really hard to draw any conclusion from if we dont have any notes on him, Hero should write a note that villain 1/3 c-bet with TPTK!
 
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seventhsense

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Oh shit, just started playing again after a long break so my math is not amazing:) you are right, should be 12%!
I think your break down of his range is on point, the flop (when he c-bet) is really hard to draw any conclusion from if we dont have any notes on him, Hero should write a note that villain 1/3 c-bet with TPTK!

The problem is hero doesn't have a full stack. If he did (and most people here wont read because we assume he does) then calling would be fine.
 
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ChrisMurray

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Oh shit, just started playing again after a long break so my math is not amazing:) you are right, should be 12%!
I think your break down of his range is on point, the flop (when he c-bet) is really hard to draw any conclusion from if we dont have any notes on him, Hero should write a note that villain 1/3 c-bet with TPTK!

Thanks very much. I agree; taking notes when villain makes an unorthodox play is always a wise idea!
 
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ChrisMurray

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The problem is hero doesn't have a full stack. If he did (and most people here wont read because we assume he does) then calling would be fine.

You're right, that makes it an even worse play but even if we do have a full stack, this still isn't anywhere near a profitable call. Calling is the worst option here because we're OOP against 2 players, one of which still has a chance to re-open the action (raise).

As a rule of thumb, you want 15:1 implied odds IP and significantly more OOP. Even if we have a full stack ($25) we only have 16:1 implied odds. The reason you need such a high ratio of implied odds to make this a profitable call is that most of the time when we hit our set, we're not going to stack our opponent. So we need significantly more than the 8:1 times we actually hit our set. But yes, I would never advise calling in this spot, if we were deeper you could consider a 4-bet bluff, but I usually just like to fold anything worse than JJ here.
 
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seventhsense

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You're right, that makes it an even worse play but even if we do have a full stack, this still isn't anywhere near a profitable call. Calling is the worst option here because we're OOP against 2 players, one of which still has a chance to re-open the action (raise).

As a rule of thumb, you want 15:1 implied odds IP and significantly more OOP. Even if we have a full stack ($25) we only have 16:1 implied odds. The reason you need such a high ratio of implied odds to make this a profitable call is that most of the time when we hit our set, we're not going to stack our opponent. So we need significantly more than the 8:1 times we actually hit our set. But yes, I would never advise calling in this spot, if we were deeper you could consider a 4-bet bluff, but I usually just like to fold anything worse than JJ here.

I understand the maths. Although we have to call 1.25 to win 26.00 if we get one caller pre. Thats almost 21:1. The reason why calling is fine (assuming a full stack) is because the open was a min raise. It is most likely is a capped range and will probably only call the 3 bet. When it's three way our implied odds change. Being oop sucks but we get nice odds and there's a chance the button has an overpair or TP making hand that can pay us.
 
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Am I the only one that is a bit sceptical of the call with 77 from bb after a raise and a 3B? You are calling 1.25 to hopefully get your $15 stack in when you hit. You got 8% chans of hitting a set. Every time you hit you need to get (1.25/0.08) $15.625. The threat of 4B, Position and the odds would make me think that winning this hand enough of the time without showdown and I dont think we are likely to GII OOP enough of the time that we hit. I would fold. Other than that, well played! :)

You may be the only one!

At 6 max, I would think it standard from any position to want to see a flop with 77. Yes, there are threats, but if we aren't willing to be active with 77 we will never have successful sessions.

Chris did a good breakdown. Unless there is a PF bet too large, I am gonna see the flop. How large is too large? that's the question. Chris mentions the implied odds, but does he take those implied odds all the way out to a showdown? Do any of us usually take implied odds out that far? No.

In this particular case with only 1 villain, I'd be trapping too.

With more than 1 villain, I'd throw out about a 1/3 pot bet (I'm that 30% guy), either as an opener or a rr, but truly, most players would see right through that ploy and fold.

What might be interesting is how this hand, a ZOOM hand, might differ from how it unfolds vs the same hand at a non ZOOM table. Incidentally, I do not have enough experience at the NON ZOOM tables to even venture a decent guess.
 
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seventhsense

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You may be the only one!

At 6 max, I would think it standard from any position to want to see a flop with 77. Yes, there are threats, but if we aren't active with 77 we will never have successful sessions.

In this particular case with only 1 villain, I'd be trapping too.

With more than 1 villain, I'd throw out about a 1/3 pot bet, either as an opener or a rr, but truly, most players would see right through that ploy and fold.

He's not. The call pre is bad.
 
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julianz0r

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with that table was a high risk from both look good if the possibility of straight on the turn was already very high and then to unclog the river and not knowing what has even more contrast.

of course is just my humble appreciation ... !!!
 
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ChrisMurray

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I understand the maths. Although we have to call 1.25 to win 26.00 if we get one caller pre. Thats almost 21:1. The reason why calling is fine (assuming a full stack) is because the open was a min raise. It is most likely is a capped range and will probably only call the 3 bet. When it's three way our implied odds change. Being oop sucks but we get nice odds and there's a chance the button has an overpair or TP making hand that can pay us.

Yes, apologies. 21:1. I still don't like it because we're not last to act, and it turns our hand face-up.

SplitSuit explains it better than I ever will. This is a very similar situation (with an even stronger hand and the open was also a min-raise). If you have the time, have a read of that and tell me what you think?

http://www.splitsuit.com/facing-cold-3bet-with-tt
 
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seventhsense

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Yes, apologies. 21:1. I still don't like it because we're not last to act, and it turns our hand face-up.

SplitSuit explains it better than I ever will. This is a very similar situation (with an even stronger hand and the open was also a min-raise). If you have the time, have a read of that and tell me what you think?

http://www.splitsuit.com/facing-cold-3bet-with-tt

Their points are very valid. They are more talking about playing TT postflop and how difficult it is. 77 is different because we aren't expecting to play here unless we hit a set. We won't get caught calling flops where we're behind anywhere near as often.

I didn't watch the whole video but I would think he advocates 4 betting instead. He makes an important point, which is know why you are calling. We are calling to flop a set and no mischief if we don't.
 
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ChrisMurray

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Their points are very valid. They are more talking about playing TT postflop and how difficult it is. 77 is different because we aren't expecting to play here unless we hit a set. We won't get caught calling flops where we're behind anywhere near as often.

I didn't watch the whole video but I would think he advocates 4 betting instead. He makes an important point, which is know why you are calling. We are calling to flop a set and no mischief if we don't.

In the text underneath he says 'I would usually just fold this'. I think he advocates 4-betting occasionally to balance ranges though too. I certainly prefer raising to calling here. You're right, we can just play 77 for flop value but we will still get caught out on a lot of flops. We'll often flop 2nd pair or something. As I say, I don't mind raising or folding (prefer folding). I'm just not a fan of calling.
 
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